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kryogenix
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Unfair treatment to Christians

is it just me or are christians, especially catholics, being treated very unfairly? i'm not saying other religions are being treated fairly either, in fact islam and judaism were targets of genocide. however in modern society, i feel christianity is being shunned. the term seperation of church and state is unfair. what about seperation of mosque and state, or temple and state? how come when the pope is portrayed as a scraggly old man on tv people find it funny but when jews are made fun of, people scream anti semitism? christian holidays are also becoming less religious. what do you see as a symbol for christmas on tv? usually it's a christmas tree but for hannukah (forgive my spelling) it's a menorah.


can anyone answer me?

Last edited by kryogenix on 12-17-2003 at 01:46 AM

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Crazydeb8ter
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jews are made fun of all the time without repercussion.

"seinfeld", for example, got a lot of its humor from jewish stereotypes.

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kryogenix
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quote:
Originally posted by Crazydeb8ter
jews are made fun of all the time without repercussion.

"seinfeld", for example, got a lot of its humor from jewish stereotypes.




that doesn't justify the unfair treatment of christians

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Old Post 12-17-2003 12:07 AM
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Crazydeb8ter
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Re: Unfair treatment to Christians

no no, i'm agreeing with you. I just have some problems with little bits of your argument.

quote:
Originally posted by kryogenix
the term seperation of church and state is unfair. what about seperation of church and mosque, or church and temple?


mosques and temples are quite different from states.

quote:
Originally posted by kryogenix
how come when the pope is portrayed as a scraggly old man on tv people find it funny but when jews are made fun of, people scream anti semitism?


seinfeld example above.

quote:
Originally posted by kryogenix
what do you see as a symbol for christmas on tv? usually it's a christmas tree but for hannukah (forgive my spelling) it's a menorah.


what's wrong with a christmas tree?

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MellowYellow
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Re: Re: Unfair treatment to Christians

quote:
Originally posted by Crazydeb8ter
what's wrong with a christmas tree?


I guess it doesn't seem like proper representation of the day. I don't see a connection between the tree and Jesus' birth. I don't even know the origin of the Christmas tree... someone care to enlighten me? (If there was some sort of connection... my bad)

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krnxswat
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Re: Re: Re: Unfair treatment to Christians

quote:
Originally posted by MellowYellow
I guess it doesn't seem like proper representation of the day. I don't see a connection between the tree and Jesus' birth. I don't even know the origin of the Christmas tree... someone care to enlighten me? (If there was some sort of connection... my bad)


Don't know if this will help, but here.

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kryogenix
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Re: Re: Re: Unfair treatment to Christians

quote:
Originally posted by MellowYellow
I guess it doesn't seem like proper representation of the day. I don't see a connection between the tree and Jesus' birth. I don't even know the origin of the Christmas tree... someone care to enlighten me? (If there was some sort of connection... my bad)



that's what i mean.


quote:
mosques and temples are quite different from states.



crap, i meant to replace church with the other religious institutions. i'll edit it now

the relation of the shape of the tree to the trinity is nice, but i'm not sure if it's backed by credible christian authority, the site even claims its a legend

also, i find some atheists think it's safe to bash other religions because they don't practice any



my question has yet to be answered

Last edited by kryogenix on 12-17-2003 at 01:47 AM

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Old Post 12-17-2003 01:44 AM
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Crazydeb8ter
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Re: Unfair treatment to Christians

quote:
Originally posted by kryogenix
what about seperation of mosque and state


btw. Islam has no church or more specificially, "religious authority"

anyways, if you want an explanation for unfair behavior towards christians, it would be the same thing as most other injustices in the world. Why are people racist against blacks? Against asians? It could be a lack of understanding of a particular race, or creed. But your answer touches upon so many factors we could probably spend all day listing them.

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Creative120
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I could see your frustration about this and i can relate also. I do see what you mean and being a christian myself can get very upseting from our point of view. But throughout time Christians are persecuted, even in the bible Christians are persecuted, in some ways harsher than it is today. i could remember all these stories of Christian persecution from missionaries and it just gets me all sad, upset and appreciate this country for being able to believe what i know without persecution. I'm not really sure how to explain why Christians are persecuted at the moment but i can have a follow up for the Christmas tree. I remember some fellow Christians showing me that the devil is at work here. He puts up the Christmas tree and puts presents and Santa Claus to shield peoples eyes from the true meaning of Christmas, the greatest gift of all and the Jesus' birth. As it would relate to the easter bunny, and egggs and chocolates are to cover up the true meaning of Easter the glorious day of the third day that Jesus fulfilled what was told and rose from the grave. Even though these things are awsome things and fun, it can be bad if it hides and makes us forget the true meanings behind the days that we celebrate.

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kryogenix
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quote:
Originally posted by Creative120
I could see your frustration about this and i can relate also. I do see what you mean and being a christian myself can get very upseting from our point of view. But throughout time Christians are persecuted, even in the bible Christians are persecuted, in some ways harsher than it is today. i could remember all these stories of Christian persecution from missionaries and it just gets me all sad, upset and appreciate this country for being able to believe what i know without persecution. I'm not really sure how to explain why Christians are persecuted at the moment but i can have a follow up for the Christmas tree. I remember some fellow Christians showing me that the devil is at work here. He puts up the Christmas tree and puts presents and Santa Claus to shield peoples eyes from the true meaning of Christmas, the greatest gift of all and the Jesus' birth. As it would relate to the easter bunny, and egggs and chocolates are to cover up the true meaning of Easter the glorious day of the third day that Jesus fulfilled what was told and rose from the grave. Even though these things are awsome things and fun, it can be bad if it hides and makes us forget the true meanings behind the days that we celebrate.




yeah, i've heard the "Devil is behind the tree" theory before. but the easter one was always presented to me as eggs represent birth and new life, just as jesus ressurected

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Old Post 12-17-2003 07:59 PM
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kryogenix
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Re: Re: Unfair treatment to Christians

quote:
Originally posted by Crazydeb8ter
btw. Islam has no church or more specificially, "religious authority"

anyways, if you want an explanation for unfair behavior towards christians, it would be the same thing as most other injustices in the world. Why are people racist against blacks? Against asians? It could be a lack of understanding of a particular race, or creed. But your answer touches upon so many factors we could probably spend all day listing them.





Islam does have a religious institution in the mosque. about blacks... i think this goes back to the slave trade thing. because the europeans were able to enslave them, they felt superior to the africans. although the US outlaws slavery and discrimination, some people have trouble letting go of the past


for the asians... they're just jealous



someone told me that people make fun of christians because they are christians themselves. they feel they won't get in trouble for making fun of christians because they are only making fun of themselves, not discriminating against another religion, which i think is really stupid. i don't get why people want to ridicule themselves

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Old Post 12-17-2003 08:03 PM
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Creative120
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quote:
but the easter one was always presented to me as eggs represent birth and new life, just as jesus ressurected


I never heard or thought of that before. Thats a good way of seeing it.

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Old Post 12-17-2003 11:33 PM
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Crazydeb8ter
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Re: Re: Re: Unfair treatment to Christians

quote:
Originally posted by kryogenix
Islam does have a religious institution in the mosque.


the mosque is simply a place for worship. Islam has no priests, and thus no singular religious institution or authority.
Besides the term "separation of church and state" refers to a schism between all things sacred and all things secular. It is not exclusive only to Christianity.

In either case, your usage of "mosque" and "temple" is erroneous. In light of that particular phrase, "church" addresses the morals and values of a particular faith while "mosque" and "temple" again, only point to buildings and therefore do not apply to your analogy.

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Old Post 12-18-2003 12:11 AM
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kryogenix
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Unfair treatment to Christians

quote:
Originally posted by Crazydeb8ter
the mosque is simply a place for worship. Islam has no priests, and thus no singular religious institution or authority.
Besides the term "separation of church and state" refers to a schism between all things sacred and all things secular. It is not exclusive only to Christianity.

In either case, your usage of "mosque" and "temple" is erroneous. In light of that particular phrase, "church" addresses the morals and values of a particular faith while "mosque" and "temple" again, only point to buildings and therefore do not apply to your analogy.





still, when you hear church and state, you think of christianity not judaism or islam

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Old Post 12-19-2003 09:06 PM
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Crazydeb8ter
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Unfair treatment to Christians

quote:
Originally posted by kryogenix
still, when you hear church and state, you think of christianity not judaism or islam


no, i don't.

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Old Post 12-20-2003 01:40 AM
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PsychoSnowman
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i do not think of only christianity when i hear church and state either.

I have not read this thread at all, but i would agree in saying the coined phrase "church and state" is lazy. Separation of religion and state would be more appropriate.

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kryogenix
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why do some muslims say christians are out to start another crusade then start terrorist attacks? there was a discovered attack on the vatican city that was supposed to take place on christmas... who's after who?

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Old Post 12-27-2003 10:55 PM
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Crazydeb8ter
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quote:
Originally posted by kryogenix
why do some muslims say christians are out to start another crusade then start terrorist attacks? there was a discovered attack on the vatican city that was supposed to take place on christmas... who's after who?


Keep in mind that a vast majority of islamic terrorist attacks are not against the Israelis, or Western culture, but rather are against other arab countries which these terrorist groups deem as holding an improper faith.

If one looks at the Hamas Covenant, they point to a universal Zionist plot for domination, the latest development being the creation of Israel. One can easily draw parallels between the two events (the crusades and the creation of israel), and in some respects, yes, the PLO or Hamas is correct in pointing out the injustice of Israel's formation.

As for who's after who, one also has to realize that the catalyst for the formation of "Europe" or "the West," was the crusades. It was only through Pope Urban's speech at Clermont that all the quarrelling fiefdoms and towns banded together forever in the spirit of fighting the greater enemy: Muslims. After the crusades, the large majority of Muslims were still ignorant of the west, even while the West continued to brand Islamic communities as their enemies. It was not until the late 19th century and early 20th century that we see a large Muslim concern for the west- a response to Western Imperialism.

So really, we are after each others necks, but let's also not be so quick to generalize. There are many christians, jews, and muslims who are willing to lay down their arms. Much of the violence we see today is not rooted in religion, but rather in politics.

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aaqthree
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I only have a little bit to say here:

1) "Church and State" is proper now only because the word "Church" refers not just to the Christian Church, but to religious affiliation in general.

2) A "mosque" isn't a centralized religious authority or anything. It's just a place that Muslims go to to pray.

3) Yes, there are Muslim terrorists. There are Jewish terrorists, there are Christian terrorists. Religious terrorism, however, is only one kind of terrorism. There's also state terror, criminal terror, private terror, etc. State terror is cited as the form that kills most people.

Religious-based terror is often just the means to which political leaders try to carry out their ends. Using religion as a means is no different than using patriotism, except that people find killing for your religion to be worse than killing for your country for some reason.

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