Spinoza is wrong people. Causality isn't the defining factor that makes us choose everything. There's a step in between. Sure, causality gives us restricted choices on what to do, but you can still choose whatever you want from those choices.

I'll define free will, contest if you would like:

Free Will - the ability to choose, free from forced causal sources that lead towards a definitive end. (i.e. not forced to do anything)

-edit- Yeaaahhh Nehru knows what he is talking about. :thumbup:

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Last edited by PsychoSnowman on 11-11-2002 at 08:59 PM

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Spinoza is right people.

I can see what you mean, that we have the ability to make decisions freely in our heads, and the ability to carry them out.
However, I don't think that this in and of itself means my will is free; an animal inside a zoo exhibit may be able to live out its life according to its whims, but we wouldn't call it free. It is restricted, and therefore it is not free.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again; we're arguing about the definition of free will:

David says: There is free will and 'restricted free-will'; as long as I have the ability to make a choice, I am free.

I say: We have either absolute free will, or the ability to determine for ourselves... if my decision-making is marred by incentives or fear of consequences, then my will to carry out those choices is not, and cannot, be free.

As Marcus Aurelius says, we must submit to the fate of our free will. (think about it before blasting me for making no sense)

Last edited by Spuzzter on 11-11-2002 at 10:16 PM

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yeah, that's why i put up my definition. but yeah, we are just arguing definitions, but now we have more people so i thought it'd be different if more people post! come on people!

Well, we'll see what everyone else thinks. Susan you read "ethics"! join in!

Anyway, taken from your post: "an animal inside a zoo exhibit may be able to live out its life according to its whims, but we wouldn't call it free. It is restricted, and therefore it is not free."

Exactly, we woulnd't call it free, we'd call it free will. I still think you're confusing Freedom and free will. you yourself said it'd be able to live on whatever whim it wanted to, but we wouldn't call it free, we'd call that free will, two seperate things.

Spinoza isn't even right in the advocacy you're taking, spinoza says everything causes our choices,...your saying that there are choices that aren't caused and then turn around and say spinoza is right, supplementing the idea of freedom you bring up.

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With regards to your response to my animal comment..... If the animal doesn't have absolute freedom, it cannot have absolute free will. I don't confuse freedom and free will; rather, I think that one must have freedom in order to have free will.

As to Spinoza, I never said that there are decisions that "just happen"...the aforementioned whims of the animal in the cage are still based on previous experience...I never denied that fact, although i may have not been explicit.

"There is no such thing as free will. The mind is induced to wish this or that by some cause and that cause is determined by another cause, and so on back to infinity."
-Baruch Spinoza


For me this makes sense. Earlier, we tossed around the idea of a fundamental truth to humanity, a "spirit" or "soul" that connects us to a greater whole. David, you yourself admitted to believing that man is nothing more than an extremely complex computer; operating on algorithms that are based only on real-life experience. In that sense, says Spinoza, we don't have free will.

Let's go back to Jawaharlal Nehru (who David advocates)
"Though the law of causality, of cause and effect, functions yet there is a measure of freedom to the individual to shape his own destiny."

What is that measure of freedom? Is man born with an inherent ability to make independent choices? A soul, if you will? To me, this is what you are defending, David; which runs in glaring contradiction to what you've been saying over the course of the year.

Please clarify.

Last edited by Spuzzter on 11-12-2002 at 03:08 AM

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Spuzzter
With regards to your response to my animal comment..... If the animal doesn't have absolute freedom, it cannot have absolute free will. I don't confuse freedom and free will; rather, I think that one must have freedom in order to have free will.

---

I don't agree, freedom isn't a prerequisite in my view.

quote:

---

As to Spinoza, I never said that there are decisions that "just happen"...the aforementioned whims of the animal in the cage are still based on previous experience...I never denied that fact, although i may have not been explicit.

"There is no such thing as free will. The mind is induced to wish this or that by some cause and that cause is determined by another cause, and so on back to infinity."
-Baruch Spinoza

---

all right. i thought from what you said before that you conceded to Nehru when you said many times something similar to:

Spuzzter (10:12:51 PM): then it's the ability to determine for one's self
Spuzzter (10:12:52 PM): but nothing else
Spuzzter (10:12:57 PM): it's not free willl
Spuzzter (10:13:11 PM): leme rephrase that
Spuzzter (10:13:18 PM): it's the ability to make decisions


that we have the ability and not forced into it. But if you meant something different or wnat to shift advocacy i don't care

quote:

---

For me this makes sense. Earlier, we tossed around the idea of a fundamental truth to humanity, a "spirit" or "soul" that connects us to a greater whole. David, you yourself admitted to believing that man is nothing more than an extremely complex computer; operating on algorithms that are based only on real-life experience. In that sense, says Spinoza, we don't have free will.

---

i believe a human is a complex computer only on the subject we were talking about, learning. It's perception and process of information is just a computer, but unlike any other machine we have today there isn't anything that has to "command" the computer to make a human, regardless if it is a machine or not, make a certain decision. A human still has a choice to do whatever it wants, regardless if it operates on a basis of a machine.

quote:

---

Let's go back to Jawaharlal Nehru (who David advocates)
"Though the law of causality, of cause and effect, functions yet there is a measure of freedom to the individual to shape his own destiny."

What is that measure of freedom? Is man born with an inherent ability to make independent choices? A soul, if you will?
Please clarify.

---

i'm actually just defending my definition and not yours, there is no soul involved. I'm saying an incredibly complex machine can be programmed with so many complexities that it can make its own decisions based on those algorithms and such.

The measure of freedom is regardless, if we isolate the choice that is always free. I don't think freedom is part of free will at all. going back to an example by Leo Tolstoy, a horse on a carriage can either trot with the rest of the horses, slow down and be whipped so it may speed up again, or it may stop and be dragged along by the carriage, but that choice of it being dragged is still its free will, regardless if it is restricted.

quote:

---

To me, this is what you are defending, David; which runs in glaring contradiction to what you've been saying over the course of the year.

---

This coming from someone who said Leo Tolstoy had the second most true view of free will right after spinoza? hehe, nah i'm just playing i know you want them all to be 7's and Spinoza a 1. I got it, it just came to my mind haha .

__________________
Long messages do not equal aggravation of any sort,
rather they reflect nothing more than a response of insight
that should always be read in a matter-of-fact tone.

"Those womyn that seek equality with men, lack determination."

"I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible you may be wrong."
-Cromwell

Last edited by PsychoSnowman on 11-12-2002 at 09:51 AM

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anyway, this pretty much summates both of our views for anyone who wants to contest or agree (cause no one ever wants to read long posts):

Nikoh rass (10:10:33 PM): so to build an airplane is not an expression of will?

VaprSnake21 (David) (10:10:48 PM): it is an example of free will

Spuzzter (10:11:06 PM): it's an example of mankind's efforts to overcome his lack of free will

sweet, haha convo saved

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that should always be read in a matter-of-fact tone.

"Those womyn that seek equality with men, lack determination."

"I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible you may be wrong."
-Cromwell

Last edited by PsychoSnowman on 11-12-2002 at 09:52 AM

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Hahaha yeah, notice the times on those messages... all followed within a few seconds of each other... a truly rapidfire conversation.

We should get Nicholas Reish to join... excellent.

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haha, yes it was! . Nicholas Reish agreed with me btw! hoho, ....so a booya for me? hehe jp.

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that should always be read in a matter-of-fact tone.

"Those womyn that seek equality with men, lack determination."

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"There is no such thing as free will. The mind is induced to wish this or that by some cause and that cause is determined by another cause, and so on back to infinity."
-Baruch Spinoza


i remember saying something like this, that all our decisions are determined mostly by the actions of others, we must use these actions to make a OUR own individual action, which in turn will effect everyone else. i practically know nothing about philosophers in history so i was suprised to see this quote.

i have a view similiar to spuzzter. we cannot cut out our own path through extremely dense forest, we must take a path that's already been made. (i do NOT mean fate, or destiny- i mean whatever life gives us, we act accordingly)

the definition of free will is (to me) obscure. too many technicalities, which i dont feel like talking about right now

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i don't think we HAVE to take any path, certainly not the one all ready made. Sure that path is there, but we can take whatever one we want. Causal effects may make a path open more than others but we can take a different one.

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that should always be read in a matter-of-fact tone.

"Those womyn that seek equality with men, lack determination."

"I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible you may be wrong."
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er...*knocks* but what exactly is a spinoza?

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sorry, i meant to say that there are multiple paths to be taken. innumberable paths to be taken, and so we can choose between each one. we cannot ourselves build a NEW path.

but the fact still remains that no matter what path we take, that path will be "cut out" by other actions. what i mean is that we can only control the direction, but we cannot the control the circumstances that lead us. these circumstances are built by others not ourselves.

Im going to present a scenario, then go backwards in time from that scenario

I want to eat an apple:
1) To eat an apple, i could buy one, but I must have money
2) money was established by society
3) Society can effect the availability of the apple (there might be high tax on apples)
4) Weather also effects the availability of apples. if the weather is bad for apples, than the tax for apples might be higher
5) the weather is predicted by people, and sometimes misinterpereted. an apple farmer could have read a a faulty forecast at the most important time of his apple farming, thus, this ruined his apple crop.
6) the only reason that apple farmer chose his career was because a his only pencil for the BAR exam broke.
7)That pencil was made by a company in New Jersey that had just gotten a new supervisor at the time.
8)The supervisor liked to eat peanuts. One day he accidently dropped his peanut can; he bent over to pick it up and did not notice a slight malfunciton in one of the machines.
9) The reason the supervisor liked to eat peanuts was because his father, who was away most of his life, always came home with a peanut can just for him to eat.
10) the father was away most of supervisor's life because he was a soldier, and there was a large war at the time.
11)This war, like any other, has long term and immediate causes, which are caused by thousands upon thousdands of other reasons more detailed than the ones above.

All these things effect me on HOW i can purchase an apple

But of course i have a choice. but then all choices are also effected by the actions of others and the actions in history.

Lets say i choose not to buy an apple, but instead pick one.

1)To pick apples from a tree, i must go to an apple tree
2) The apple tree was planted by a Nature Loving Association (NLA)
3) the founders of the NLA grouped together far back in history for the main purpose of opposing a lumber company
4) the Lumber Company's logo is a redwood tree. It was formed when a group of lumberjacks decided to cut down redwood trees.
5) The lumberjacks loved redwoods for their particular color.
6) According to Darwin, millions of years have passed with many actions happening to the redwood species. Redwoods survive all these actions, while other trees were wiped out.

recap:
The actions of a millions of years ago, effects the actions of the lumberjacks, effects the raising of a lumber company, effects the founding of a nature association, effects the planting of apples trees, effects the location of where i can pick an apple.

all of this happens to every single decision/choice u make in life. and every decision and choice made in life then effects others. it just goes on and on.

but what does it it matter? free will or not, we still have the ability to choose. in the end that's all that really matters. because if we were independent of everyone and everything else - if there were no actions to determine what choices we have, then wouldnt that mean that nothing exists??

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And i agree with everything you said pretty much and never argued that point as i admit causality happens to a large extent. I'll just highlight stuff from your post that you said that concurs with what i think.

quote:

---

Originally posted by huby40
there are multiple paths to be taken. innumberable paths to be taken, and so we can choose between each one. we cannot ourselves build a NEW path.

---

__________________
Long messages do not equal aggravation of any sort,
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that should always be read in a matter-of-fact tone.

"Those womyn that seek equality with men, lack determination."

"I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible you may be wrong."
-Cromwell

Last edited by PsychoSnowman on 11-16-2002 at 08:12 PM

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Jj2
er...*knocks* but what exactly is a spinoza?

---

__________________
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that should always be read in a matter-of-fact tone.

"Those womyn that seek equality with men, lack determination."

"I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible you may be wrong."
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Free will is a choice we have to make, whether we will use it or not.
Now all the people who have replied to this thread are intelligent, and use their own free will. It takes free will to reply to this thread. Of course, you can say that without the thread you wouldn't be able to apply the free will you use now. But free will spawned this thread in the first place. Free will is the reason huby's war was started. Free will is why Lumberjack Inc. uses redwoods as their logo. All things human are the product of will. Whether it's free or not, is up to the first person to apply human thought.
Stupid people (none have posted here) don't have free will. Their actions are dependent on the opinions of others. Free will is the reason you want the apple.

So in summation: free will is exactly what it says. A person's actions dictated by their will, free of all others. Basically the person doing what they want, as mentioned in the definition above.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by requiem
Free will is a choice we have to make, whether we will use it or not.

---

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"Those womyn that seek equality with men, lack determination."

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quote:

---

Originally posted by PsychoSnowman


"Submit to the fate of free will."
-Aerioulus, sorry don't know how to spell his name.

---

I know plenty of people who don't use their free will. Puppets they are.
Unless you say it's free will that drives them to NOT use their free will, in which I will not sit here and have a "chicken or the egg" discussion.

Edit: Marcus Aurelius is his name, Roman Emperor is his fame. Also Gladiator

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of course i will say it is their free will not to use it.

Bring on the chicken and egg discussion.

-edit- btw, are you in TOK requiem? This is where me and spuzzter got into this discussion originally.

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"Those womyn that seek equality with men, lack determination."

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My school does not offer IB. I never seriously looked into taking them, although I probably should have.

Actually my position about the chicken and the egg is false. I retract that. The choice to not use free will IS in fact free will. I realized that right after posting how badly I contradicted myself.
Big thumbs up to myself right there.

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all right

-edit- hey btw, welcome to jsl.

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that should always be read in a matter-of-fact tone.

"Those womyn that seek equality with men, lack determination."

"I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible you may be wrong."
-Cromwell

Last edited by PsychoSnowman on 11-21-2002 at 09:34 PM

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