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Jusunlee.com Forums > Relationships > Sex > Guys Room > what type of guy are you?
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micron
all i need is a miracle

Registered: Mar 2002
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what type of guy are you?

Recently, I had the pleasure of stepping out for an evening of partying with friends and friends of friends at a hot Korean club here in New York City. When you get to be my age (turning 30 this year) and position in life (engaged to a lovely woman, knowing what I want from life, thinking about home purchases rather than high end stereo equipment, etc.), you don't get to party much. My social life has pretty much revolved around the kitchen and my DVD player.

As my fiancée and I got back home later that night, she asked me, "What's wrong with you Korean people?" (She's an ABC - American Born Chinese.) She wanted to know why in a room full of good looking young men and beautiful young women, all of whom were single, not one person was making a move on any other person. We got into a discussion about Korean American men, how we are different from Chinese American men, and all of the issues surrounding such a topic. At the end of the conversation, however, I realized that there are seven distinct types of Korean American men as it pertains to relationships.

With such a theoretical framework, I feel that it is possible to reduce much of the misunderstanding and conflict that arises between men and women in our community. Men, once they realize which archetype they are, can either embrace what they are or change. Women can more fully understand why John Lee or David Kim isn't behaving in the way they expected. Therefore, I would like to present to you, dear reader, these seven archetypes. I confine my analysis to the heterosexual males, as I do not know enough about alternative lifestyles to discuss meaningfully.

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Old Post 05-12-2002 03:54 PM
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micron
all i need is a miracle

Registered: Mar 2002
Location:
Posts: 1486
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1. The Loser

Description: The Loser is inherently lacking self-confidence for a variety of reasons. Despite all empirical evidence to the contrary, he believes that he is neither desirable nor worthy of female attention. Rather than appreciating himself for his gifts, his talents, and the good things he offers, he focuses exclusively on his shortcomings, his lacks, and his bad qualities.

Symptoms: Self-hate; negative feedback cycle (for example, feeling that women find him unattractive because he's fat, the Loser will become depressed and eat more nasty crap, thereby becoming fatter and fueling his depression, etc. etc.); inability to be sexually or romantically aggressive; has too many female friends who are just friends.

Behavior: Will engage in long-term crushes on a single female, singling her out as the object of all his desires, but will not say a word in fear that she will reject him out of hand. If she should display any sort of interest in him, she will immediately become undesirable, as The Loser cannot accept that a woman worthy of his desire could possibly find him desirable in turn. In social situations involving women, the Loser will freeze up and avoid/ignore their company, preferring to mask his nervousness at being around women by talking to his buddies all night.

While the Loser behavior is mostly harmless, one possible danger is that the Loser will enter Phase II and turn his self-denigration outwards. Reasoning that decent women cannot find him attractive, and feeling rejected by them, the Loser will date only women he inwardly finds objectionable, disgusting, or in some way unacceptable. Mistreatment is the only possible outcome.

Solution: Extensive psychotherapy on self-acceptance and self-esteem. Decrease the Desire To Action (DTA) Interval. (DTA Interval refers to the time in between formulating a desire and taking an action to further that desire, for example, seeing a hottie and asking her to dance. Cases have been reported where the DTA Interval in this scenario has lasted weeks, rather than minutes, requiring that the Loser frequent a particular establishment).

2. The Player

Description: The Player is often thought of as being the opposite of the Loser archetype. Further examination reveals, however, that the two are closely related - two sides of the same coin, as it were. The Player is also deeply insecure about himself and carries around a significant amount of self-hate. He deals with it, however, by continually reinforcing his masculinity through the conquest of women. All relationships, therefore, and all interactions with women take on the quality of a game with a "winner" and a "loser."

Symptoms: Self-hate; quantitative masculinity myth (believing that the manliness of one is directly related to how many sexual partners he has had); inability to be truly intimate; working out regularly out of vanity rather than health; spending more on clothing and partying than on savings; too many female "friends with privileges."

Behavior: Will engage in short-term flings, often one night stands, in an effort to feel better about himself as a man. Is out on the town at least once a week, if not more, to hunt. Counts Swingers as one of his all-time favorite movies, often quoting from it, with the overall message of the story apparently forgotten.

The Player is generally jovial and fun to be around and mostly harmless. They do know how to court a woman, how to make her feel good, how to make her feel special and appreciated - at least for a while. The Player will usually back off if the chase becomes too difficult since success lies in quantity, rather than quality. There may be some emotional pain involved for the naïve young woman who gets taken, but she is, after all, a consenting adult. She needs to stop feeling victimized and sorry for herself and recognize that she too had fun, while it lasted.

The danger may arise if the Player transforms into a far less benign form: the Playa. The Playa is basically a wannabe Player who does not have the necessary tools: looks, money, education, whatever. He therefore turns to deception, alcohol, and possibly more sinister means to secure sexual conquest.

Solution: Age, time, maturity, and some psychotherapy would be helpful. The Player is usually formed out of revenge for some trauma suffered by the man in question. Perhaps high school anxiety, or a failed relationship in the past, or an unfaithful girlfriend causes a man to question himself and to take out his pain on women. Usually, as the wound heals, the Player wakes up and starts wanting to change his ways. Self-awareness as a Player, and exploration of the root causes of Playerhood, are always helpful in coming out of this phase.

3. The Perfectionist

Description: The Perfectionist is most often found within the large Christian subgroup within the Korean American community, although they are not uncommon elsewhere. They compare every human female they encounter with a list of criteria or a picture of perfection in their head. They may even enter serious relationships - although every relationship is serious at least initially with this archetype - in order to discover more points of comparison. When the real-life woman fails to measure up to the list in his head, The Perfectionist will move on (albeit deeply conflicted and curiously heartbroken) in search of The One.

Symptoms: Guilt-ridden (even over the smallest things, like looking at a beautiful woman with lust in his heart); self-questioning; tends to investigate a woman rather than conversate with her; makes lists of qualities he is seeking; does not date even though women are throwing themselves at him; avoids sexual situations if at all possible.

Behavior: The Perfectionist is a very common profile, and often appears in conjunction with other archetypes - for example, a man can be both a Perfectionist and a Loser at the same time. A Perfectionist Loser would justify not taking action after desire formation by comparing the object of said desire to the list of criteria, rejecting her for failing to meet all of the criteria (for example, that she may not be tall enough, despite being a devoutly Christian investment banker writing her Ph.D. thesis at Harvard who models on the side), and continuing to look for The One. In one case I have personally heard of, the Perfectionist in question had a List of Criteria with 51 elements in them, one of which was that she speak at least four languages. When I suggested that he look into adopting a little girl from Korea and raising her himself, as he was unlikely to encounter anyone who met all 51 criteria, I was met with stony silence.

The commonality of the Perfectionist archetype within the Christian subgroup is due to (1) the difficulty of being a "good" Christian for mortals, (2) the ideals of perfect wife enforced by the more fundamentalist sects (e.g., Presbyterians and Full Gospel) which are common in the Korean American community, (3) the covert anti-intellectualism of most of these conservative sects, and (4) the ban on premarital sex combined with the implicit disapproval of romantic relationships (which do not lead to marriage).

A decent, intelligent, well-educated man of means will naturally fall into the Perfectionist archetype under such stress. He is constantly falling short of the "Glory of God" and guilt-ridden as a result - and a twenty something healthy heterosexual male will find it impossible not to fall short. While he fervently wants the Biblical wife, his native intelligence and educated tastes find it impossible to hold conversations with such meek ewes, and since he can't date a woman without intending to marry her, he refrains from dating anyone at all, preferring, rather, to wait for God to provide her to him.

Apart from religion, the other main cause of Perfectionist tendencies is the family. While a woman might be everything he wanted in a wife, she does not measure up to what Mom and Dad expect of a daughter-in-law. This usually happens to men who have lived up to every expectation of their parents: good school, good graduate school, good job, good looking, good boy, etc. ad nauseam. Combining his own list of criteria with his parents' list of criteria, we arrive at an ideal of perfection that is downright contradictory. For example, on his list might be: "strong, independent-minded, professional woman with her own career and life ambitions." On his parents' list, we have: "docile, obedient wife to our son, and mother to his children who will sacrifice everything for good of the family." Eventually, this form of Perfectionist will rely on his parents to provide her to him.

Solution: Extensive re-education in reality; forced change in church affiliation (if of this variety) or independence from familial expectation (if of this variety). May require counseling not only the individual in question, but his parents as well. An excellent line of reasoning might be: "What makes you think you're good enough for this perfect woman were she actually to exist in real life?" This plays into the inherent guilt extant in most Perfectionists. (Warning: this therapy may result in turning the Perfectionist into the Loser archetype.) Since many Perfectionists have no idea what a real woman is actually like, with all of her good and bad qualities, he needs to date a number of women for a long time before gaining the ability to deal with a woman as a human being with all that entails.

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Old Post 05-12-2002 03:54 PM
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micron
all i need is a miracle

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4. The Stranger, or L'Etranger

Description: The Stranger (as in Albert Camus' book, L'Etranger) is usually a foreign student studying and working in the U.S. but can be a gyopo who went to Korea and came back damaged. He has been thoroughly seduced by the women in Korea and do not consider Korean American women to be acceptable as a result. In the case of foreign students, this is completely natural and understandable. In the case of the formerly American man, it is an interesting problem. The category name, L'Etranger, refers to the fact that such men are stuck between two cultures and are truly home and neither.

Symptoms: Speaks Korean all the time, even if he completely sucks; listens only to gayo, hangs out only in Korean (as opposed to Korean American) clubs, and cuts off social relations with anyone who is not Korean; believes that going to a "room salon" is a perfectly acceptable way to spend an evening and $1,000.

Behavior: The foreign students behave precisely the way they have always behaved, and have been taught to behave. This is natural for them. For the Etrangers, however, there is a particular desperation with which they pursue things.

For example, while Korean men drink prodigious amounts, they know how to hold their liquor for the most part - since they've been trained to know how. Etrangers, however, drink like a madman, pass out, throw up all over the place, and generally make fools of themselves because they do not know.

In terms of dating, Etrangers have a difficult time as well. Having rejected the American way of walking up to a woman at a bar and striking up a conversation, Etrangers resort to the tried-and-true Korean ways of "meetings" and "bookings." The unfortunate reality, of course, is that they have little idea as to how to conduct themselves at such a nuanced social ritual as a "booking" and often end up irritating and insulting the women.

Given enough time and exposure, Etrangers eventually become naturalized Koreans. Many will return to Korea either permanently or to find a wife. It may be several years before deeply held cultural beliefs, as well as the reality of both Korea and the United States (e.g., difficult to go out to dinner with your boss and his wife if your wife doesn't speak English too well) start to strain such a relationship.

Nonetheless, the Etranger archetype is almost always harmless, except perhaps to the afflicted individual himself. The real peril is that the Etranger never actually becomes a naturalized Korean, and becomes "stuck" in the no-man's land where he's not Korean, not American, and not even Korean American (since he's already rejected that).

Solution: Reality re-education (e.g., you are not a chaebol's son, but the progeny of greengrocers from L.A., and it will ultimately cause a problem); become a naturalized Korean; begin Korean American acculturation process (lock yourself in a room, dig up your old Cure tapes and New Order CDs, and start thinking of reasons why you feel inchoate anger and frustration at society).

5. The Cynic

Description: The Cynic is a rare breed since he tends not to share any of the problems plaguing the other archetypes. He is self-confident, self-aware, and self-sufficient. He is usually well-educated, intelligent, successful, and from a good family. In short, he would be as close to the Prince archetype (see #7, The Prince) save his one failing. The Cynic is unable to trust any female, and cannot escape the thought that a woman desires him simply for his resume. Nonetheless, it is impossible for a woman to get to know him beyond his resume because he does not trust her and will not open up to her. The Cynic archetype is often combined with The Perfectionist archetype.

Symptoms: Suspicious of women's motives; serial monogamy (one exclusive relationship after another of varying length, usually between 1 and 6 months); widely considered a "Great Guy" by all his female acquaintances; does not ever chase a girl.

Behavior: The Cynic is not interested in shallow flings. He considers such things as shameful and beneath him. Rather, he is interested in getting to know quality women in a quality way. The problem, of course, is that he just can't seem to meet anyone who isn't a skank, a hoochie, an idiot, or a gold-digging slut. Ask him to name someone who is not a skank, and he'll name people he cannot be romantically involved with for one reason or another. For example, he might name his brother's girlfriend, a nun, or some such person who is "off-limits."

The Cynic is not a Perfectionist - he isn't comparing every woman he meets to a list in his head. He doesn't expect women to meet an ideal; he just wants a woman who is worthy of his intimacy. The problem, of course, is that a woman who is worthy would not put up with his closed-off, distrusting ways. She would reasonably expect that a man would chase her, court her, and sweep her off her feet. This, the Cynic is unable or unwilling to do. As a result, the women who flock to the Cynic - because they see how great his resume is and how he would make a great catch - tend to reinforce his views that women are untrustworthy skanks with shit for brains.

Solution: Treatment is difficult and must be done in stages. In stage one, the Cynic must be made to actually chase a woman who is not throwing herself at him. After he becomes comfortable with the idea that he isn't too good to go after a woman, he must be forced to open up and share more of himself. Then he must be made to understand that the actions of a few bad women cannot be ascribed to all women.

6. The Sellout

Description: The Sellout is not often seen within the Korean American community for the simple reason that he does not wish to be a part of it. They have been victimized by racist American society so much that they reject anything, which would make them "self-segregationists." They can be found at various hip "mainstream" clubs and bars in major cities, as well as at Margaret Cho shows.

Symptoms: Serious self-hate; shame at being the child of immigrants, rather than of the Pierponts or some European nobility; often involved with, but not always, the creative/artistic fields - since that's as far from the Asian stereotype as possible.

Behavior: There is not much to say about the Sellout's behavior, as they will rarely be seen where other Korean Americans are. The one distinguishing feature is that the Sellout, in an attempt to integrate as fully as possible, will out-white the whites. Their Koreanness is merely ethnic flavoring to be shared with those fortunate enough to have such a cool, diverse friend. Anything arising out of his background that might be uncomfortable to whites - for example, the very real prejudice faced by those of Asian descent - would be kept out of sight. After all, it's not about negativity but positive solidarity.

Solution: Severe reality readjustment therapy involving multiple mirrors, recitation of American history (including Korematsu v. United States, in which the Supreme Court authorizes the internment of Japanese American citizens, and the Los Angeles Riots of 1992 in which Koreatown in L.A. was burned down), and readings from The Analects of Confucius.

7. The Prince

Description: Exists only in various made-for-Lifetime movies, books written by women for women, and in a few selected Hollywood romances.

Symptoms: The perfect man.

Behavior: Will not exist in reality.

Solution: A strong cup of coffee.

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Old Post 05-12-2002 03:54 PM
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micron
all i need is a miracle

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article was from zandd.com... man i miss that site.

me. i think id be best described as a Perfectionist Loser. :sad:

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Old Post 05-12-2002 03:58 PM
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tm11
down by law

Registered: Mar 2002
Location: MI
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perfectionist loser-cynic... with only very very few qualities of a cynic i guess... i don't think any of these labels could describe me in the relationship i'm in now though..

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Last edited by tm11 on 05-13-2002 at 05:29 PM

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Old Post 05-12-2002 09:58 PM
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sakura angel
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Registered: May 2002
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jusun

jusun your still young like me and i know you would find the one you love asap i know it

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sakura

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Old Post 05-13-2002 03:10 PM
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Crazydeb8ter
administrator

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hmm...i think chinese men and korean men don't really have difference in behavior, and im actually leaning towards the fact that korean guys are more outgoing than chinese.

all that aside, im more tha loser hahahah

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"The weight of this sad time we must obey,/ Speak what we feel, not what we ought to say./ The oldest hath borne most; we that are young/ Shall never see so much, nor live so long."
King Lear (V.3.300-304)

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Old Post 05-14-2002 05:46 PM
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JuJu
shaKe :: sHake

Registered: May 2002
Location: alhambra,, LA? nah..
Posts: 1465
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damn that took a long time for me to read buh ya i have to say something totally off topic... your about to turn 30? (im not sayin your old) cuz you read some of the post in the sex area and like you seem totally cool bout it! wow.. your gunna be a cool dad someday! haha.. okay jus sayin


or does it totally jus seem weird to meeh for some reason!!!

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Old Post 05-15-2002 08:32 PM
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kRypTic_nABi
nohl jah q(-_-)p

Registered: May 2002
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quote:
Originally posted by cHiNkLilgiRL
damn that took a long time for me to read buh ya i have to say something totally off topic... your about to turn 30? (im not sayin your old) cuz you read some of the post in the sex area and like you seem totally cool bout it! wow.. your gunna be a cool dad someday! haha.. okay jus sayin


or does it totally jus seem weird to meeh for some reason!!!



its an article he got off of zandd? i think..
da guy who wrote da article was gonna turn 30..
he juss posted da article..

hes not 30..hes a high skOoler

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Old Post 05-16-2002 04:54 AM
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JuJu
shaKe :: sHake

Registered: May 2002
Location: alhambra,, LA? nah..
Posts: 1465
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fuck... now i feel hella dumb... :huh:

sorRy


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Old Post 05-16-2002 12:29 PM
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