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Originally posted by touch_my_butt
yar...we're all entitled to out opinionz
but in my OPIONION...God made for us to reproduce...and give life.....but for those who are gay or lesbianz...power to ya

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I'm wondering...is masturbation a form of sodomy?
I'm not quite sure what it all entails...er...I don't read the bible, I'm not even christian, and I don't...do that thing...

One of the main reasons that I'm asking is, my sister and her friend David were having a dispute over Dante's inferno and his stance on homosexuality. They were trying to define sodomy and eventually came to an agreement that it simply meant "unnatural sex" or sex without the intent to reproduce...something like that. Does masturbation qualify as "unnatural sex"?

Did I make any sense just now?
It's so hard to articulate what I want to say when I hate typing the "m" word><; It feels so dirty

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Yeah, I think that Dante, for all of his greatness, was a bit of an anti-homosexual. So were most theologians of his day, as they are now...

I think that sodomy really only applies to man-man sexual relations. In the biblical account of sodom, men lay with men. So there it is, I suppose... it's been expanded, I think, to include any homosexual sex. God destroyed sodom because there Lot couldn't come up with 100 good people living in the town; whether or not they were 'good' or 'bad' depended on their sexual orientation, I don't know.. but it's generally understood that they were bad by nature because of their 'unnatural' acts.

Of course, Gnostics believed that the God of the Old Testament was very different from the one in the New Testament; the Father doesn't demand sacrifices and weird job-like tests of will and resolve. But whatever...

anyway, I don't think masturbation is labeled as 'sodomy.' I'm not sure why it's 'bad,' I don't know of a bible section that mentions masturbation. If anyone knows, please tell me.

Dante, by the way, was pretty tolerant of people of other religions, as long as they were noble-hearted. Moses and David both go to heaven, and even Saladin, a Muslim and enemy of the crusaders, is placed with Caesar, Virgil, Cicero, and the other 'worthy' pagans. Maybe he's barred admittance from heaven, but at least he's not frying in boiling blood.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Spuzzter

anyway, I don't think masturbation is labeled as 'sodomy.' I'm not sure why it's 'bad,' I don't know of a bible section that mentions masturbation. If anyone knows, please tell me.

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that should always be read in a matter-of-fact tone.

"Those womyn that seek equality with men, lack determination."

"I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible you may be wrong."
-Cromwell

Last edited by PsychoSnowman on 01-06-2003 at 06:35 AM

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Oh yeah, If I'm hit on by a homosexual, I consider it a compliment, just like I would if an attractive girl hit on me.. Yeah

I just don't like it when people tout the fact that they're cool with 'fags' as long as they don't hit on them. What if I come off as gay? I don't want anyone to get totally rebuffed if they made a mistake.

Yeah. I'll get offa my soap-box

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quote:

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Originally posted by PsychoSnowman
oh i was just commenting on what touch_my_butt said about how he was interpreting it as "god made us to reproduce and any deviance from that is sinful" or whatever he was saying. Hence, masturbation isn't reproducing, so it'd be as bad as homosexuality. I don't think it'd have to be labeled as sodomy in this instance in order to be "bad"

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Right right, but I know a lot of people that think masturbation is a sin. I have an irish catholic grand-uncle that is vehemently against it, as well as a whiney kid that i heard the other day preaching that it was a sin... is it, really?

And if it's so wrong, then why does it feel so right?
(hooho shock value! )

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Alex you're silly, anyways, masturbation is viewed as a sin(at least by the catholic church, I don't think it'd be stretch to extend that to other Christians as well, someone correct me if I'm incorrect), I'll find the specific quote in the bible if anyone wants it, My dad has a copy of the catechism of the catholic church in his room and I could find the quotes in the bible there, but he's sleeping and I don't want to disturb him.
As alex said, masturbation isn't a form of sodomy, as seemingly logical as the argument that since it's not for the direct purposes of reproduction it's akin to queerness, under the teachings of the church, that does not hold. I think the definition of sodomy that everyone is using here is skewed from the first place. Moreover, I tend to think there are degrees to sins (that's another theological question right there), and I would argue that masturbation, while a sin, isn't as severe as queerness.

Anyways, like any sin, you can always repent and ask for forgiveness. I suppose that would entail that you stop sinning, (On a sidenote, I wonder if just being queer is viewed as a sin, I'm sure it is, but I wonder whether issues of gender are incorporated into deeming what is and isn't a sin, and whether or not one would have to commit non-heterosexual acts to actually have sinned for that sin, eh, that didn't come out exactly as I wanted to and it's not really a deep thought or anything, but whatever).
In these discussions people tend to get wrapped up in the notion that once you've committed a sin you're condemned, and that isn't true at all, not saying that it's occuring here.

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I do in fact want the specific quote, whenever. I've never known.. and to think I have a 'new american' bible in my room. However, I'd rather not go flipping through it.

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yea! Let's plan our repentance and all go to heaven!

-edit- i'm joking of course.

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in religious terms i guess its wrong but then just because someone likes someone who is their own sex doesnt mean they're bad people we cant judge them thats da lords job

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I dunno...I always leave the judging up to Murphy and Darwain=_=;;
Biblical works worry me a little. I mean...It was written by men, and then to add to that, some of the guys were hopped up on shrooms and things like that. And the translation of the bible that people read today has some errors in it.
Like when people say the "virgin" Mary. It isn't because she was necessarily a virgin. In the original text, she was simply the "young" Mary. But for the specific word used, I guess the closest translation was "virgin"
If you want a better explanation than the terrible one I've provided, seek out a person of the Jewish faith that happens to be an intellectual/international baccalaureate student. That's where I got my information from...though I don't remember everything he said very well.

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haha well im really not that religious i believe in god n try to be a good person n thats about it hehe it was just my opinion that yeah anyways =b

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quote:

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Originally posted by Spuzzter
I do in fact want the specific quote, whenever. I've never known.. and to think I have a 'new american' bible in my room. However, I'd rather not go flipping through it.

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There is no exact quote referring to masturbation, but the church's teaching is that "deliberate use of the sexual facility for whatever reason, outside of marriage, is essentially contrary to its purpose." I guess it's considered an offense against chastity, and the best quote on that is Gal: 3: 27.

quote:

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Originally posted by Psychosnowman
yea! Let's plan our repentance and all go to heaven!

-edit- i'm joking of course.

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First , stating that I understand you're only jesting and that no offense has been taken, I don't understand why you feel the need to make jokes at the expense other people's beliefs when your beliefs were never questioned in the first place (No harm has been done, I doubt, to anyone, but I still don't see how it's justified in making such a statement). In the debate occuring in this thread, there was a theological question that arose, and some people expressed their views, and I tried to (badly though heh) clarify. I feel somewhat at a loss, and this feeling is somewhat subjective, but in any case where someone's beliefs would be mocked, I do not think it is fair or right. Ultimately though, it's not that important and I really don't care. It's all good in the end.

On a sidenote, if anyone ever tries to tell another that they would "go to hell" for something they've done, they have no right or founding to say that. I don't know how people get off on judging each other, especially people that claim to be Christians. Just because the Bible or a teaching of the Church says something may not be right, that doesn't mean one must go out and demonize others for what they may be doing. Kpsweetie's right when she says that we shouldn't try to judge other people. People who think they should already have some deep-seated issues, and their faith is whack.

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I try no to attack religion, though, I'm sorely tempted to...more often than not. Other people's extreme religious reaction to me, my ideals, and living situation have made me a little bitter.

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quote:

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Originally posted by roentgen
I try no to attack religion, though, I'm sorely tempted to...more often than not. Other people's extreme religious reaction to me, my ideals, and living situation have made me a little bitter.

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I can understand where you're coming from (to an extent of course, probably not totally) but enough that I think I can empathize. It is too bad that people who claim to be "religious" don't realize that their religion teaches tolerance and respect for others(yes that's a generalization, but is a common theme among most religions). Haha, if it means anything, I apologize on behalf of those irresponsible people, whether they were ignorant or intolerant, or tried to force their views upon you. That doesn't really solve anything, but it's all I can offer.

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thanks. I really appreciate hearing(reading) that. It makes me feel a lot better! If only there were more people like you~

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quote:

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Originally posted by tm11
It is too bad that people who claim to be "religious" don't realize that their religion teaches tolerance and respect for others(yes that's a generalization, but is a common theme among most religions). :

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Long messages do not equal aggravation of any sort,
rather they reflect nothing more than a response of insight
that should always be read in a matter-of-fact tone.

"Those womyn that seek equality with men, lack determination."

"I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible you may be wrong."
-Cromwell

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quote:

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Originally posted by Spuzzter
Right right, but I know a lot of people that think masturbation is a sin. I have an irish catholic grand-uncle that is vehemently against it, as well as a whiney kid that i heard the other day preaching that it was a sin... is it, really?

And if it's so wrong, then why does it feel so right?
(hooho shock value! )

---

__________________
Long messages do not equal aggravation of any sort,
rather they reflect nothing more than a response of insight
that should always be read in a matter-of-fact tone.

"Those womyn that seek equality with men, lack determination."

"I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible you may be wrong."
-Cromwell

Last edited by PsychoSnowman on 01-07-2003 at 10:06 PM

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I don't think anyone has to agree with queerness or anything for that matter. People are entitled to their opinions, but it is a shame that a lot of religious people feel the need to have opressive views and act against queers.

quote:

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originally posted by Psychosnowman
it's sad that that is in the bible. Too bad for them i think

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quote:

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Originally posted by tm11

First , stating that I understand you're only jesting and that no offense has been taken, I don't understand why you feel the need to make jokes at the expense other people's beliefs when your beliefs were never questioned in the first place (No harm has been done, I doubt, to anyone, but I still don't see how it's justified in making such a statement). In the debate occuring in this thread, there was a theological question that arose, and some people expressed their views, and I tried to (badly though heh) clarify. I feel somewhat at a loss, and this feeling is somewhat subjective, but in any case where someone's beliefs would be mocked, I do not think it is fair or right. Ultimately though, it's not that important and I really don't care. It's all good in the end.

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Last edited by Alchemist on 01-08-2003 at 12:33 AM

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