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Originally posted by Nojeel
what proves that god exist?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Alchemist
The Babel fish.

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When the day is done
you are all that is left

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quote:

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Originally posted by Nojeel
what proves that god exist?

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Enter My Head!

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quote:

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Originally posted by requiem
Or two even.

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word is bond

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quote:

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Originally posted by Alchemist
The Babel fish.

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Enter My Head!

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quote:

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Originally posted by TyGer STyLe
HmM... well... what proves that he doesn't? i mean really theres no real definitive answer to whether he exists or not... even though nothing like this could be proven let me give you something to think about... tell me where did the universe come from? the big bang? if so the basis to the "big bang" theory (which i don't buy) is that the whole universe spawned from a few molecules that rapidly expanded to create the universe... (i believe thats what its based on...) but i mean... how did those molecules come to exist in the first place? i mean something can't just come out of nothingness and void... if they were just there something had to have created them right? well thats what i think anyway... but then again there are alot of holes in every arguement you bring up in this subject... its really impossible to prove the existence of God... thats y its called faith... and through faith theres grace... thats how christianity works...

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Long messages do not equal aggravation of any sort,
rather they reflect nothing more than a response of insight
that should always be read in a matter-of-fact tone.

"Those womyn that seek equality with men, lack determination."

"I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible you may be wrong."
-Cromwell

Last edited by PsychoSnowman on 01-17-2003 at 07:48 PM

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quote:

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Originally posted by PsychoSnowman
that i can't respond because then you'll go off on me again.

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Enter My Head!

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quote:

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Originally posted by TyGer STyLe
no i probably won't go off on you unless i feel your being a smart ass (which i did feel you were doing before... selfrighteous even)...

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i wasn't, i just said "you know that's not true" and you went off. It's all in your head.

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why don't you just present your advocacy first before we even pick out faults in eachothers arguements

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Why not this way? Anyway, i prefer to pre-empt in this instance, there wasn't a fault i wa spicking apart i was just saying will i be able to debate you without you getting "frustrated." Simple as that. You know why i posted this, think about it. I'm not being a smartass, id on't know why you presenting yourself this way.

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plus im not really prepared spiritually to handle a debate of this kind... so say what you wish but i really doubt i'll come back to any of your counters...

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ah nevermind, i don't feel like it.

__________________
Long messages do not equal aggravation of any sort,
rather they reflect nothing more than a response of insight
that should always be read in a matter-of-fact tone.

"Those womyn that seek equality with men, lack determination."

"I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible you may be wrong."
-Cromwell

Last edited by PsychoSnowman on 01-17-2003 at 11:08 PM

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quote:

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Originally posted by TyGer STyLe
explain... sorry kinda slow

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quote:

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Originally posted by PsychoSnowman
i wasn't, i just said "you know that's not true" and you went off. It's all in your head.

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no... thats not when i felt you were a smart ass i was just curious at that point... later... thats when i felt you were being a smart ass so don't say its in my head... ... and must you be so objective? but i guess thats the price of being a good debater

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Enter My Head!

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quote:

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Originally posted by TyGer STyLe
no... thats not when i felt you were a smart ass i was just curious at that point... later... thats when i felt you were being a smart ass so don't say its in my head... ... and must you be so objective? but i guess thats the price of being a good debater

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__________________
Long messages do not equal aggravation of any sort,
rather they reflect nothing more than a response of insight
that should always be read in a matter-of-fact tone.

"Those womyn that seek equality with men, lack determination."

"I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible you may be wrong."
-Cromwell

Last edited by PsychoSnowman on 01-18-2003 at 07:49 PM

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if you spend eternity with God then later wouldn't you be bored?

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quote:

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Originally posted by PsychoSnowman
Even still, when people are smartasses to me, it's not like i do what you did, you don't have justifications for this, even if it wasn't even that big of a deal, just saying.

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Enter My Head!

Last edited by TyGer STyLe on 01-19-2003 at 09:34 AM

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quote:

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Originally posted by TyGer STyLe
you'll come back at me with another statememt saying that you are or you had never anything to get over... okay...

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good job. Now what's the point in stating something if you knew it was invalid because you all ready knew the answer....hmm oh well (i really am curious there is no caustic nature in saying that). There isn't anything to get over, i just don't like it when people try and cop out and pull off a "leave me alone!" routine. But, i will.

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im just really tired of all your long winded explanations and justifications... hah... i guess "terse" isn't in your extense vocabulary...

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it must not be. I mean, if i write long messages, it's obvious the word isn't in my vocabulary (sarcasm)...look at your posts btw, you'll notice an interesting contradiction.

Wow, look how short this message is

__________________
Long messages do not equal aggravation of any sort,
rather they reflect nothing more than a response of insight
that should always be read in a matter-of-fact tone.

"Those womyn that seek equality with men, lack determination."

"I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible you may be wrong."
-Cromwell

Last edited by PsychoSnowman on 01-19-2003 at 05:37 PM

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One of the most acute and persistent things that bugs me about modern Christian worship and modern Christians is the way that Christ is constantly envisioned: as the emaciated corpse nailed to a cross who died for our sins. Christ is not the living, vigorous man who delivered the Sermon on the Mount, the wine-guzzling vagrant and precocious socialist railing against income inequalities envisioning a world, not an after-life, of universal love. Christ crucified rules, and what modern Christianity does is to crucify him again and again so that he can never get a word out of his mouth. Christ's preoccupation with the plight of the poor has been winnowed out in favor of mind-numbing. The moneylenders still control the temple.

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First off I want to apologize for starting this post and ignoring it. I have no excuse. But I'm back and I am eager to answer the questions that have been posted up. hehe, i'm a little overwhelmed by the task that's at hand, but that's my fault for letting them all pile up. So seeing as how I don't really know which question to answer first, I think I'll start w/ the very first one posed.

How Do I know God Exists?

OK This part i got off of this website. It's an awesome site where i go to for answers. http://www.equip.org/free/CP0102.htm

Basically what it's saying is that there is evidence for the existance of God everywhere. Now I know what you're thinking, "Dude if it's everywhere then where is it, don't say the world cause science has explained that all already."

True science does have many answers for it. But what i don't understand is that of course science is gonna explain a lot of how the world works, I mean why would God create a world that doesn't make sense. Pretty much the creation of the universe and the world balances out. If the earth were off it's orbit for even a little bit then we'd either be freezing or burning up.

"one can argue that the contingency of the universe — in light of Big Bang cosmology, the expanding universe, and the second law of thermodynamics (which implies that the universe has been "wound up" and will eventually die a heat death) — demonstrates that the cosmos has not always been here. It could not have popped into existence uncaused, out of absolutely nothing, because we know that whatever begins to exist has a cause. A powerful First Cause like the God of theism plausibly answers the question of the universe’s origin. Also, the fine-tunedness of the universe — with complexly balanced conditions that seem tailored for life — points to the existence of an intelligent Designer." (http://www.equip.org/free/DA252.htm)

2nd; moral consciousness
One of the major arguments is that morality is cultural, that right and wrong, good and evil, are all culturally relative. But if we look throughout history and time we find that basic ideas of right and wrong are constant, (ie, murder, rape, widow killing, and genocide.) The question is posed then where did we get this idea of morality? This morality can only come from an absolute truth (i might have jumped a lot there, let me know if i've lost you.) Here's a convo that a friend of mine had w/ an atheist about moral relativism.

Atheist: I think Morality is relative. We can't really pass judgement on people since we all come from different backgrounds.
Me: Excuse me, but aren't you passing judgement now when you say "We can't" do something?
Atheist: ...
Me: Can you please tell me how you can have any order with moral relativism? Wouldn't we just have pure anarchy?
Atheist: Well, we want to be practical and we want the human species to survive.
Me: But what if I don't want that?
Atheist: Then you need to move to somewhere else.
Me: Why should I do that as a moral relativist?
Atheist: ...I see your point your driving at.
Me: It seems to me that you need some sort of absolute moral judgement even for you to articulate your moral relativism because you are assuming that it is a "good" thing for us as species to survive.

Regardless, due to the sinfulness of our hearts and the effectiveness of satan in this world, these are not enough for us to believe. The only way we'd believe is if God Himself showed up on this world. And He did in the form of Jesus Christ


The Meat and Potatoes

Ahhhhhh.......Here we go. The meat and potatoes, the main entree of what I want to be saying. This would be the life and death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ is a historic figure. He has lived and died and resurrected. This is historical fact and for that reason and a few others i'll post in my next entry do I believe that God exists.


i really want to post this now, but it's so long that I don't want to clog this up. So for now I'll end here and post the second part tomorrow. Read and mull over this and if you have any problems IM me or post here. I await your answers eagerly. MWUAHAHAHAHA. Lates

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morality is such a terrible proof of god's existence.

It's not that mystifying, it's not that beyond us, i am insulted to be represented through that fabricated converstaion through that rather dumb atheist haha. It said it wasn't fabricated, but it sure seemed like it was.

anyway i'll change the convo to be better.

Atheist: I think Morality is relative. We can't really pass judgement on people since we all come from different backgrounds.
Me: Excuse me, but aren't you passing judgement now when you say "We can't" do something?
Atheist: "We can't really" is the key phrase. Isolating it to that makes it infringing in a way that is only out of context. We cna pass judgement if we want, but we must realize it's all relative. There is no absolute morals is what i was saying. Then you could say i'm passing judgement that there is no absolute, but i'd like to hear one decent argument for you to discount why that would be a bad idea.
Me: Can you please tell me how you can have any order with moral relativism? Wouldn't we just have pure anarchy?
Atheist: You're thinking through a utilitarianistic and moreso a religious mindset. You assume the goal of all humanity is to have order, when it's not. Sure, we could very well be anarchy. Do i really care? It doesn't matter at all. That doesn't do anything for you.
Me: But what if I don't want that?
Atheist: Then you are complaining about something which you wouldn't be able to change. Have fun with that.
Me: Why should I do that as a moral relativist?
Atheist: why not? We can complain about it if we want, we don't have to if we don't want. Nothing really matters it's not as if my point of view is filled with hypocracies. "Want" doesn't really have anything to do with it. Why are you asking that question?
Me: It seems to me that you need some sort of absolute moral judgement even for you to articulate your moral relativism because you are assuming that it is a "good" thing for us as species to survive.
Atheist: Well, i'm not, that's from the old conversation before PsychoSnowman made the atheist not seem so stupid and not play into everything the creationist wanted. We don't "need" to survive. That's a creationist mindset, don't confuse them. Right now, you're too entrenched within a creationist mindset to prove anything, all you are doing is making observations and hoping i think the same way when i don't. I don't need an absolute moral judgement, all i need is an acknowledgement of perspectivistic thought. That's all i really advocate. It's really simple, stop putting words in my mouth. Morality really proves nothing, it's several socially accepted tenets that have transcended that level into something called morals,but nothing really great or mystifying. How did they come about? Easy, people wrote them down and called them the word of god and faith sprung. Or, people could have just thought the same way as a world collectively. They aren't all exactly the same, you know that. It's not THAT inconceivable. What does morality really prove in regards to god? I have no idea, please tell me.

Ethics coming only from an absolute truth? no that's not a too big jump, it's a big jump of faith though. To say it's impossible for it to not have arisen by itself is to discount a whole lot of human intelligence. We aren't drones. Furthermore, why couldn't morality just have come from the bible and the like? by saying god doesn't exist doens't eliminate the existence of the sacred writings that have morals in them....i don't see where that person is going with this. Morals were established through religion, and by themselves. Easily explained.

__________________
Long messages do not equal aggravation of any sort,
rather they reflect nothing more than a response of insight
that should always be read in a matter-of-fact tone.

"Those womyn that seek equality with men, lack determination."

"I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible you may be wrong."
-Cromwell

Last edited by PsychoSnowman on 01-20-2003 at 06:01 AM

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of course i realize nothing can ever be proven, i'm just trying to eliminate bad arguments from being made here.

quote:

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Originally posted by IronPanda322

I mean why would God create a world that doesn't make sense. The Meat and Potatoes

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__________________
Long messages do not equal aggravation of any sort,
rather they reflect nothing more than a response of insight
that should always be read in a matter-of-fact tone.

"Those womyn that seek equality with men, lack determination."

"I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible you may be wrong."
-Cromwell

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quote:

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Originally posted by PsychoSnowman
morality is such a terrible proof of god's existence.

It's not that mystifying, it's not that beyond us, i am insulted to be represented through that fabricated converstaion through that rather dumb atheist haha. It said it wasn't fabricated, but it sure seemed like it was.

anyway i'll change the convo to be better.

Atheist: I think Morality is relative. We can't really pass judgement on people since we all come from different backgrounds.
Me: Excuse me, but aren't you passing judgement now when you say "We can't" do something?
Atheist: "We can't really" is the key phrase. Isolating it to that makes it infringing in a way that is only out of context. We cna pass judgement if we want, but we must realize it's all relative. There is no absolute morals is what i was saying. Then you could say i'm passing judgement that there is no absolute, but i'd like to hear one decent argument for you to discount why that would be a bad idea.
Me: Can you please tell me how you can have any order with moral relativism? Wouldn't we just have pure anarchy?
Atheist: You're thinking through a utilitarianistic and moreso a religious mindset. You assume the goal of all humanity is to have order, when it's not. Sure, we could very well be anarchy. Do i really care? It doesn't matter at all. That doesn't do anything for you.
Me: But what if I don't want that?
Atheist: Then you are complaining about something which you wouldn't be able to change. Have fun with that.
Me: Why should I do that as a moral relativist?
Atheist: why not? We can complain about it if we want, we don't have to if we don't want. Nothing really matters it's not as if my point of view is filled with hypocracies. "Want" doesn't really have anything to do with it. Why are you asking that question?
Me: It seems to me that you need some sort of absolute moral judgement even for you to articulate your moral relativism because you are assuming that it is a "good" thing for us as species to survive.
Atheist: Well, i'm not, that's from the old conversation before PsychoSnowman made the atheist not seem so stupid and not play into everything the creationist wanted. We don't "need" to survive. That's a creationist mindset, don't confuse them. Right now, you're too entrenched within a creationist mindset to prove anything, all you are doing is making observations and hoping i think the same way when i don't. I don't need an absolute moral judgement, all i need is an acknowledgement of perspectivistic thought. That's all i really advocate. It's really simple, stop putting words in my mouth. Morality really proves nothing, it's several socially accepted tenets that have transcended that level into something called morals,but nothing really great or mystifying. How did they come about? Easy, people wrote them down and called them the word of god and faith sprung. Or, people could have just thought the same way as a world collectively. They aren't all exactly the same, you know that. It's not THAT inconceivable. What does morality really prove in regards to god? I have no idea, please tell me.

Ethics coming only from an absolute truth? no that's not a too big jump, it's a big jump of faith though. To say it's impossible for it to not have arisen by itself is to discount a whole lot of human intelligence. We aren't drones. Furthermore, why couldn't morality just have come from the bible and the like? by saying god doesn't exist doens't eliminate the existence of the sacred writings that have morals in them....i don't see where that person is going with this. Morals were established through religion, and by themselves. Easily explained.

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