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Posted by Crazydeb8ter on 12-23-2002 12:32 AM:

100's of Muslims Imprisoned in US

Credits: Maxazn
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hundreds of Iranian and other Middle East citizens were in southern California jails on Wednesday after coming forward to comply with a new rule to register with immigration authorities only to wind up handcuffed and behind bars.

Shocked and frustrated Islamic and immigrant groups estimate that more than 500 people have been arrested in Los Angeles, neighboring Orange County and San Diego in the past three days under a new nationwide anti-terrorism program. Some unconfirmed reports put the figure as high as 1,000.

The arrests sparked a demonstration by hundreds of Iranians outside a Los Angeles immigration office. The protesters carried banners saying "What's next? Concentration camps?" and "What happened to liberty and justice?."

A spokesman for the Immigration and Naturalization Service said no numbers of people arrested would be made public. A Justice Department (news - web sites) spokesman could not be reached for comment.

The head of the southern California chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union (news - web sites) compared the arrests to the internment of Japanese Americans in camps during the Second World War.

"I think it is shocking what is happening. It is reminiscent of what happened in the past with the internment of Japanese Americans. We are getting a lot of telephone calls from people. We are hearing that people went down wanting to cooperate and then they were detained," said Ramona Ripston, the ACLU's executive director.

JAILS OVERFLOWING

One activist said local jails were so overcrowded that the immigrants could be sent to Arizona, where they could face weeks or months in prisons awaiting hearings before immigration judges or deportation.

"It is a shock. You don't expect this to happen. It is really putting fright and apprehension in the community. People who come from these countries -- this is what they expect from their government. Not from America," said Sabiha Khan of the Southern California chapter of the Council on American Islamic Relations.

The arrests were part of a post Sept. 11 program that requires all males over 16 from a list of 20 Arab or Middle East countries, who do not have permanent resident status in the United States, to register with U.S. immigration authorities.

Monday was the deadline for men from Iran, Iraq, Syria, Libya and Sudan. News of the mass arrests came first in southern California, which is home to more than 600,000 Iranian exiles and their families.

Officials declined to give figures for those arrested or for the numbers of people who turned up to register, be fingerprinted and have their photographs taken.

"We are not releasing any numbers," said Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS) spokesman Francisco Arcaute.

CALLS FOR HELP

Islamic groups and the local chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) said they had been swamped with calls for help.

INS spokesman Arcaute said those arrested had violated immigration laws, overstayed their visas, or were wanted for crimes. The program was prompted by concern about the lack of records on tourists, students and other visitors to the United States after the Sept. 11 hijack plane attacks on New York and Washington.

Islamic community leaders said many of the detainees had been living, working and paying taxes in the United States for five or 10 years, and had families here.

"Terrorists most likely wouldn't come to the INS to register. It is really a bad way to go about it. They are being treated as criminals and that really goes against American ideals of fairness, and justice and democracy," Khan said.

The Iranian protesters said many of those detained were victims of official delays in processing visa and green card requests.

"My father, they just took him in," one young man told reporters. "They've been treating him like an animal. They put him in a room with, like, 50 other people and no bed or anything."

Khan said one of those in jail was a doctor, who was being sponsored for U.S. citizenship when his sponsor died.

One Syrian man said he went to register in Orange County with a dozen friends. He was the only one to come out of the INS office. "All my friends are inside right now," M.M. Trapici, 45, told reporters. "I have to visit the family for each one today. Most of them have small kids."

More
here
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Seriously...this is crazy. Fuck Bush. You want a hillbilly Hitler? Here's your man. I wonder there any correlation between his asinine-bordering-on-totalitarian policies with his stupidity? (example: Pretzel- "I knew i didn't pass out for too long because when I got back up my dogs were still sitting in the same place")

-edit- wrong forum. my bad, supermod, please move.

__________________
ni pour ni contre; ça m'est égal

"The weight of this sad time we must obey,/ Speak what we feel, not what we ought to say./ The oldest hath borne most; we that are young/ Shall never see so much, nor live so long."
King Lear (V.3.300-304)

Posted by ajy on 12-23-2002 12:48 AM:

i dont think you know what your talking about...seriously...
after september 11th bush who isnt a 'hillbilly hitler' had to crack down on the middle east and muslims. so what, if you dont like it move to another country or try to change foreign policy, youll probably fail at either.

Posted by Crazydeb8ter on 12-23-2002 12:56 AM:

dude, take a look at the article first and be educated. All experts agree that his "screening" procedures involving the INS are extremely inefficient not to mention time-consuming, both of which hamper the movement to search for terrorists anyways.
Try finding two specific needles out of a mound of needles. Using a system that is already bogged down and notoriously slow, not to mention, careless, to accomplish such a task is ludicrous.

quote:
if you dont like it move to another country

His policies, foreign and domestic, throw back all the ideas that "our founding fathers" encouraged, into their faces. I stand for what this country should be doing by protesting. You support his bigoting rampage.

quote:
try to change foreign policy

I will, when I can vote.

Posted by ajy on 12-23-2002 01:05 AM:

well he is the president which entitles him to do what he feels fit and if he feels like this is doing the right thing, then unless he is completely insane, there has to be a good reason behind it. if you dont like what he does then you can say that and protest that you can do, but you cant stop him from making future decisions like this one and most likely its going to keep on happening.

Posted by MasWusHot on 12-23-2002 01:05 AM:

I hate bush~ just thought id share

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Posted by Crazydeb8ter on 12-23-2002 01:12 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by AjY 2k
well he is the president which entitles him to do what he feels fit and if he feels like this is doing the right thing, then unless he is completely insane, there has to be a good reason behind it.

You of all people should be the one most aware that one must question authority

quote:
Originally posted by AjY 2k
if you dont like what he does then you can say that and protest that you can do, but you cant stop him from making future decisions like this one and most likely its going to keep on happening.

what you just said describes a totalitarian regime.

Posted by ajy on 12-23-2002 01:19 AM:

quote:
You of all people should be the one most aware that one must question authority

your right on that one. And i know that i am going to be reprimanded on this but I feel like I should just say it. I think that because im the only white person on the board, i just get treated like shit, unlike the others. Dont take this as bitching,moaning or being a pussy, i'm just saying what I think is happening. Sorry admin but I think i can say it also.

Posted by Crazydeb8ter on 12-23-2002 01:27 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by AjY 2k
your right on that one. And i know that i am going to be reprimanded on this but I feel like I should just say it. I think that because im the only white person on the board, i just get treated like shit, unlike the others. Dont take this as bitching,moaning or being a pussy, i'm just saying what I think is happening. Sorry admin but I think i can say it also.

hmm..well i'm not your greatest fan, but i don't bring race into my opinions of other people. My opinion of you has been shaped by how you've acted towards others, and the type of behavior you encourage. Being white wasn't and still isn't an issue.

Posted by ajy on 12-23-2002 01:38 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Crazydeb8ter
hmm..well i'm not your greatest fan, but i don't bring race into my opinions of other people. My opinion of you has been shaped by how you've acted towards others, and the type of behavior you encourage. Being white wasn't and still isn't an issue.

that also. sorry to anyone who thinks im an asshole because of the way i talk on the internet but its just the way i come off sometimes. and also, i dont have a long span to deal with people who annoy me. and i know its hippocritical to say that but its the way i am.

Posted by daNNy LuV 1TYM on 12-27-2002 03:47 AM:

geez...it's like japanese internment durin WWII

Posted by Klumzy on 12-27-2002 04:30 AM:

im sure the government had their reasons to detain and arrest them... i dunno but personally, I don't think the Arabs have any right to protest. you have to think about the whole situation and not just look at it thru the arabs point of view... freedom and all that shit is important and all... but did you think about this??? its no secret the utterly hopeless and stupid al qaida people (they are arabs) will try to strike again... the government is doing its best (altho some of their methods might be wrong, they are ultimately trying to protect teh american public)... don't want to sound racist but who gives a *&^@ if a few arabs get their rights taken away for the protection of the american public??? think about it like this... what's more important, the freedom/rights of 500-1000 arabs, or preventing another catastrophe like 9/11 where LOTS and LOTS of innocent people died...

to make it easier to understand ill give you an example

lets say A KOREAN terrorists (instead of the arabs) attacked america and killed LOTS of innocent civilians, and the government started to arrest lots of Koreans (innocent)... if i got arrested... i would be pissed no doubt but i don't think i would say its unfair... i mean thinkk about it... even tho most arabs aren't in any way shape or form al qaida members, they can't complain if the government takes away their rights and stuff, I MEAN COME ON!!! their countrymen (retarded ones at that) TOOK away lots of innocent people's precious LIVES... something much bigger than freedoms/rights... when someone STUPID makes a mistake SOMEONE HAS TO TAKE THE BLAME and in a situation like this... its NOT THAT EASY POINTING OUT THE TERRORISTS... that's why i belive the government should be given some leeway in detaining and improsining even innocent people IN ORDER TO HOPEFULLY arrest those &(^*&@#ing retarded terrorists

arg... omg this damn post took sooooo long, hope someone reads it

__________________
"The man of tomorrow is forged by his battles today."

Posted by PsychoSnowman on 12-27-2002 04:44 AM:

-edit- issue all ready dealt with.

__________________
Long messages do not equal aggravation of any sort,
rather they reflect nothing more than a response of insight
that should always be read in a matter-of-fact tone.

"Those womyn that seek equality with men, lack determination."

"I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible you may be wrong."
-Cromwell

Posted by Crazydeb8ter on 12-27-2002 05:42 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Klumzy
im sure the government had their reasons to detain and arrest them... i dunno but personally, I don't think the Arabs have any right to protest. you have to think about the whole situation and not just look at it thru the arabs point of view... freedom and all that shit is important and all... but did you think about this??? its no secret the utterly hopeless and stupid al qaida people (they are arabs) will try to strike again... the government is doing its best (altho some of their methods might be wrong, they are ultimately trying to protect teh american public)... don't want to sound racist but who gives a *&^@ if a few arabs get their rights taken away for the protection of the american public??? think about it like this... what's more important, the freedom/rights of 500-1000 arabs, or preventing another catastrophe like 9/11 where LOTS and LOTS of innocent people died...

to make it easier to understand ill give you an example

lets say A KOREAN terrorists (instead of the arabs) attacked america and killed LOTS of innocent civilians, and the government started to arrest lots of Koreans (innocent)... if i got arrested... i would be pissed no doubt but i don't think i would say its unfair... i mean thinkk about it... even tho most arabs aren't in any way shape or form al qaida members, they can't complain if the government takes away their rights and stuff, I MEAN COME ON!!! their countrymen (retarded ones at that) TOOK away lots of innocent people's precious LIVES... something much bigger than freedoms/rights... when someone STUPID makes a mistake SOMEONE HAS TO TAKE THE BLAME and in a situation like this... its NOT THAT EASY POINTING OUT THE TERRORISTS... that's why i belive the government should be given some leeway in detaining and improsining even innocent people IN ORDER TO HOPEFULLY arrest those &(^*&@#ing retarded terrorists

arg... omg this damn post took sooooo long, hope someone reads it

your whole post is very flawed.
I'll go into some detail later on, sit tight, kinda busy right now to write a reply.

Posted by Ladi Jay on 12-27-2002 05:48 AM:

victor, aren't we always too busy to answer?!

anyways, I guess the nation just doesn't learn from the past...

Posted by PsychoSnowman on 12-27-2002 06:26 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Klumzy
im sure the government had their reasons to detain and arrest them... i dunno but personally, I don't think the Arabs have any right to protest. you have to think about the whole situation and not just look at it thru the arabs point of view... freedom and all that shit is important and all... but did you think about this??? its no secret the utterly hopeless and stupid al qaida people (they are arabs) will try to strike again... the government is doing its best (altho some of their methods might be wrong, they are ultimately trying to protect teh american public)... don't want to sound racist but who gives a *&^@ if a few arabs get their rights taken away for the protection of the american public??? think about it like this... what's more important, the freedom/rights of 500-1000 arabs, or preventing another catastrophe like 9/11 where LOTS and LOTS of innocent people died...

to make it easier to understand ill give you an example

lets say A KOREAN terrorists (instead of the arabs) attacked america and killed LOTS of innocent civilians, and the government started to arrest lots of Koreans (innocent)... if i got arrested... i would be pissed no doubt but i don't think i would say its unfair... i mean thinkk about it... even tho most arabs aren't in any way shape or form al qaida members, they can't complain if the government takes away their rights and stuff, I MEAN COME ON!!! their countrymen (retarded ones at that) TOOK away lots of innocent people's precious LIVES... something much bigger than freedoms/rights... when someone STUPID makes a mistake SOMEONE HAS TO TAKE THE BLAME and in a situation like this... its NOT THAT EASY POINTING OUT THE TERRORISTS... that's why i belive the government should be given some leeway in detaining and improsining even innocent people IN ORDER TO HOPEFULLY arrest those &(^*&@#ing retarded terrorists

arg... omg this damn post took sooooo long, hope someone reads it

i only read the last paragraph you wrote. And since i'm about to go to sleep i'll just respond shortly.

I am rather offended at this. I mean, i am what they call "arab americans" i suppose, but i'm not even arab...sure, i LOOK arab but i'm not if you were to be precise about it. I can't complain? Sure, i can. I didn't do anything. I don't care how mad you are at terrorists responsible for 9/11, it's an utter atrocity to give the federal government power enough to detain me even though i have nothing to do with the terrorists simply for the "greater good." That's absurd. Ok, let's all just forget about all that america was founded upon and infringe on everyone's rights so that we can find the terrorists. Oh wait, it's not everyone, it's only the people who look like the terrorists. Sure, you might not complain about it not being unfair (i think you would, but whatever), but it's stupid to think it's not. Under your rationale, let's just imprison the entire arab looking population of america and detain them for the greater good of finding the terrorists. I don't see why you have such a prioritization in "vengeance" if i may call it. Sure, it's insuring htey don't do it again, but there is a facet of vengance or satisfaction or whatever that i hear echoing throughout your entire post...well, paragraph that i read.

ok, now i just read the first paragraph hehe. Now, isn't that the epitome of fascism. Let's all kill all the outsiders and protect our own!! What could you possibly be thinking that it makes sense in your head right now? Let's detain me and everyone else...oh nevermind...it's only 500-1000 people! all at the sake of capturing "terrorists." It must be ok if we think about it all utilitarian now! I mean, utilitarianism supercedes all aspects of our government and basic ethics. Why do you think they don't do that? It'd be a terrible precedent to set. A precedent that could turn the system of government into abusing even more power...hmmm and maybe descend into a more liberal form of government, communism, socialism, whatever. And, it's generally hypocritical. Credibility will be enervated and it could ruin everything. Well, probably not ruin everything but i just felt like writing that hehe. Anyway, So...it's ok to put japanese people into internship camps, and the like? That is so terrible...i am so glad you are not helping to run our country. So..."who gives a $@#U($!", well...i do and so do a lot of people, particularly arab looking people. Then, you make it seem objective that terrorists will strike again when in fact you know yourself you are not sure of that. It's not like it's possible for the government to protect its people totally from everything. A defensive war is impossible to win totally, it's why it's so good to be on the offensive. And, you don't think arabs have a right to protest? That is so offensive. Why don't i have a right to protest? Seriously, tell me, i think i am much more deserving than a lot of these utterly stupid americans that live here...and you are telling me i somehow don't have a right to? Who cares about your utilitarian views, remember this above everything in the post:

Why pick and choose?

I don't think you do what your second or third sentece says in your post. You aren't seeing it through the whole point of view. You have to see it through a full scope. You limit yourself to that of vengeance. Sure, freedom and "all that shit" is important....wow...it's very very imporant. The moment we compromise that is the moment our government is weakened. And another contradiction in your post...if we are tring to protect the american public, then why hurt some?

Anyway that is a very messy reply i didn't plan on making. It's not that great i apologize. I'll refine it later probably, or just follow up. There are a lot more other reasons i don't feel like typing right now or feel like thinking up right now hehe.

Oh yeah, i'm not nearly as mad as people will perceive me to be. Again, i just type long posts so don't think that means i'm mad cause i'm not.

Posted by Crazydeb8ter on 12-27-2002 06:32 AM:

to julie:
nope seeing as i'm back to reply. (btw. supermod move this to enlightenment)

edit- to david: nice, i liked your point about facism.

quote:
who gives a *&^@ if a few arabs get their rights taken away for the protection of the american public???

for one, the arabs.

quote:
what's more important, the freedom/rights of 500-1000 arabs, or preventing another catastrophe like 9/11 where LOTS and LOTS of innocent people died...

okay, let's see, the founding principal of our nation was to provide a country wherein one could experience "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." So we can rephrase your question into, "what's more important, the key founding principal of our country, the one which we promised to uphold no matter the reason, or preventing another terrorist attack."
Take a look at it this way, the "method" the US is employing to seek out these terrorists is to use an already extremely inefficient, and slow system (the INS) to search out a few needles from a whole stack of needles. Experts agree that using such a method is not only a waste of time, but also is possibly prone to error. So again, let's rephrase your question: "What's more important, the key founding principal of our country, the one which we promised to uphold no matter the reason, or preventing another catastrophe by using a system that is slow, inefficient, and prone to error."

While I'm not at all saying that these lives are unimportant, what remains a key issue is that America needs to uphold its promise: Its promise of a safe and free land that gives liberty to all. If we violate this promise, if we break this vow (assuming that we haven't already broken it haha:b) then America will become a lie within itself, a broken mirror, that reflects a false image for others to see. We need to mend that mirror. (forgive me, i'm watching braveheart :D)

So lets disregard all this about the key stone of American principal. Answer this: Was the US internment of the Japanese just?

edit- david, i like your points a lot better haha

quote:
lets say A KOREAN terrorists (instead of the arabs) attacked america and killed LOTS of innocent civilians, and the government started to arrest lots of Koreans (innocent)... if i got arrested... i would be pissed no doubt but i don't think i would say its unfair

Uh, yes, that could be life according to you. however, this is NOT you, this is a whole ethnic group. Besides, comparing the situation to yourself is the most shittiest standard to use. Why? Because everyone possesses their own values. Therefore, I will call again the standard upon which this country has been founded upon: liberty and freedom. Now, applying your example to this standard, one can see that it is a clear violation.

quote:
their countrymen (retarded ones at that) TOOK away lots of innocent people's precious LIVES... something much bigger than freedoms/rights... when someone STUPID makes a mistake SOMEONE HAS TO TAKE THE BLAME and in a situation like this...

so you're saying that innocent people have to take the blame.
WTF is wrong with you.

Posted by Klumzy on 12-28-2002 07:53 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Crazydeb8ter
to julie:
nope seeing as i'm back to reply. (btw. supermod move this to enlightenment)

edit- to david: nice, i liked your point about facism.

for one, the arabs.

okay, let's see, the founding principal of our nation was to provide a country wherein one could experience "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." So we can rephrase your question into, "what's more important, the key founding principal of our country, the one which we promised to uphold no matter the reason, or preventing another terrorist attack."
Take a look at it this way, the "method" the US is employing to seek out these terrorists is to use an already extremely inefficient, and slow system (the INS) to search out a few needles from a whole stack of needles. Experts agree that using such a method is not only a waste of time, but also is possibly prone to error. So again, let's rephrase your question: "What's more important, the key founding principal of our country, the one which we promised to uphold no matter the reason, or preventing another catastrophe by using a system that is slow, inefficient, and prone to error."

While I'm not at all saying that these lives are unimportant, what remains a key issue is that America needs to uphold its promise: Its promise of a safe and free land that gives liberty to all. If we violate this promise, if we break this vow (assuming that we haven't already broken it haha:b) then America will become a lie within itself, a broken mirror, that reflects a false image for others to see. We need to mend that mirror. (forgive me, i'm watching braveheart :D)

So lets disregard all this about the key stone of American principal. Answer this: Was the US internment of the Japanese just?

edit- david, i like your points a lot better haha

Uh, yes, that could be life according to you. however, this is NOT you, this is a whole ethnic group. Besides, comparing the situation to yourself is the most shittiest standard to use. Why? Because everyone possesses their own values. Therefore, I will call again the standard upon which this country has been founded upon: liberty and freedom. Now, applying your example to this standard, one can see that it is a clear violation.

so you're saying that innocent people have to take the blame.
WTF is wrong with you.

hey moron, since you're argument is 100% right, why don't you write a petition to the president then? tell them all that shit u wrote above... maybe they can see what they are doing wrong???
i believe this country is doing what is necessary to deal with those damn terrorists, and i support the government 100%
Heil Bush!

__________________
"The man of tomorrow is forged by his battles today."

Posted by PsychoSnowman on 12-28-2002 08:11 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Klumzy
hey moron, since you're argument is 100% right, why don't you write a petition to the president then? tell them all that shit u wrote above... maybe they can see what they are doing wrong???
i believe this country is doing what is necessary to deal with those damn terrorists, and i support the government 100%
Heil Bush!

aww, do i not get a response? it took awhile to write haha

Posted by Klumzy on 12-28-2002 11:18 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by PsychoSnowman
aww, do i not get a response? it took awhile to write haha

MY RESPONSE----dude just understand this, i didn't mean to offend you or the arabs, but i just think the government is doing a good job handling the situation...

YOUR QUOTE------Under your rationale, let's just imprison the entire arab looking population of america and detain them for the greater good of finding the terrorists.

MY RESPONSE-----well, that's never gonna happen, seeing as your still around

j/k but seriosly, do u see america going arround arresting all the arabs?? i dont think so... they are just arresting people who THEY suspect ... not just everyone who looks arabic

YOUR QUOTE------Let's detain me and everyone else...oh nevermind...it's only 500-1000 people! all at the sake of capturing "terrorists."

MY RESPONSE------i thought i said its better to detain 500-1000 innocent arabs to prevent another massarce like 9/11...did i say that?? i'm not sure... but seriosly HOW CAN YOU MAKE EVERYONE HAPPY??? its simple, you can't... that's why the government gots to do SOMETHING, and this is the result of it

YOUR QUOTE------It'd be a terrible precedent to set. A precedent that could turn the system of government into abusing even more power...hmmm and maybe descend into a more liberal form of government, communism, socialism, whatever. And, it's generally hypocritical. Credibility will be enervated and it could ruin everything.

MY RESPONSE-------- you're right, its a bad example to set but hey, in some situations like this, you cant come out with answer where everyone can benefit from... man im not sure if u understood bad, my bad english... not good... also as the US elected president, Bush should do WHAT HE THINKS IS BEST FOR TEH NATION... if you didn't like he's decision, just dont vote for him next time... i dunnno, i think he's making the best out of a bad situation, but hey who knows, im just a stupid kid with no brain

YOUR QUOTE-----So...it's ok to put japanese people into internship camps, and the like? That is so terrible...i am so glad you are not helping to run our country.

MY RESPONSE----------im glad im not running this country too because it WOULD BE (@*!&(@!&*$ed up...but back to your quote... i dunno, i think america did what was in her best interest... and that was to put the japanss in camps... personally i think japan would have done the same thing, OR ANY OTHER COUNTRY for that matter, if americans were living in japan... so i think america did what any other country would have done... i dont have a right to say it was right or wrong... BUT THATS WHY EVERYONE SHOULD LIVE IN THEIR OWN COUNTRY AND NOT IMMIGRATE... im a immigrant but i wish i didnt come here and just live in my country, none of this RACISMS and crap like that would happen, or am i wrong again???

YOUR QUOTE--------. And, you don't think arabs have a right to protest? That is so offensive. Why don't i have a right to protest? Seriously, tell me, i think i am much more deserving than a lot of these utterly stupid americans that live here...and you are telling me i somehow don't have a right to?

MY RESPONSE------ my responsed was biased, i guess im wrong like usual :( but americans aren't utterly stupid... don't get me wrong, im not a american-lover or anything like that but if your statement is right, how come America is on top of the world? the thing that i dont get is... why don't someone butcher YASSER ARAFAT, sorry got off topic

YOUR QUOTE-------------You aren't seeing it through the whole point of view. You have to see it through a full scope. You limit yourself to that of vengeance. Sure, freedom and "all that shit" is important....wow...it's very very imporant. The moment we compromise that is the moment our government is weakened. And another contradiction in your post...if we are tring to protect the american public, then why hurt some?

MY RESPONSE------------god this is getting loooong... now i see your point, i was baised again... but like i said, YOU CANT MAKE EVERYONE HAPPY... or the world would be a better place for me too!

YOUR QUOTE----------Anyway that is a very messy reply i didn't plan on making. It's not that great i apologize. I'll refine it later probably, or just follow up. There are a lot more other reasons i don't feel like typing right now or feel like thinking up right now hehe. Oh yeah, i'm not nearly as mad as people will perceive me to be. Again, i just type long posts so don't think that means i'm mad cause i'm not.

MY RESPONSE-------------glad you're not mad, i didn't mean to offend arabs, i just wrote that because i agree with what bush is trying to do to prevent another massacre... i like to believe in the goodwill of our leaders... i just be a follower that's all so no need to BASH ME

OMG SOMEONE BETTER READ ALL THAT SHIT I WROTE... took forever... well to answer crazy's question " WTF is wrong with you" i say this... nothing, wtf is wrong with thinking bush is making the best decision out of a bad situation??

__________________
"The man of tomorrow is forged by his battles today."

Posted by PsychoSnowman on 12-29-2002 12:25 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Klumzy
MY RESPONSE----dude just understand this, i didn't mean to offend you or the arabs, but i just think the government is doing a good job handling the situation...

fine, intentions aren't everything.

quote:
MY RESPONSE-----well, that's never gonna happen, seeing as your still around j/k but seriosly, do u see america going arround arresting all the arabs?? i dont think so... they are just arresting people who THEY suspect ... not just everyone who looks arabic

it doesn't matter about it not happening. We were talking about your views on the issue, not america's. Sure, you advocated the actions taken place by the INS, but we're ultimately talking about what you said. Still, under YOUR rationale we should detain everyone for teh greater good of the people (utilitarianism).

And, yeah, sure america is doing that.

quote:
YOUR QUOTE------Let's detain me and everyone else...oh nevermind...it's only 500-1000 people! all at the sake of capturing "terrorists."

MY RESPONSE------i thought i said its better to detain 500-1000 innocent arabs to prevent another massarce like 9/11...did i say that?? i'm not sure... but seriosly HOW CAN YOU MAKE EVERYONE HAPPY??? its simple, you can't... that's why the government gots to do SOMETHING, and this is the result of it

My question for you is not how can you make everyone happy, but: "Why would you risk the happiness of others in order to maintain the amelioration of the whole?" Why sacrifice me and arabs just so everyone else can be happy? Again, this goes back to the one point i made about this in my post:

Why pick and choose?

Furthermore, do i really have to adhere to what you said? I mean, it's not as if implications are an irrational argument, especially when it points directly in that directon. Often, extrapolations can help us see the flaws in arguments since they are taking place on a grander scale. not only that, but they give us a better understanding of what this precedent will mean in the future will extrapolation is bound to occur. And, lastly i don't see why you said that on this point. I did adhere clearly to what you said, i said sardonically "ooh it's only 500-1000 people" or whatever, which is what you said. That is sarcastically saying that you can't weigh human lives, as you do.

quote:

MY RESPONSE-------- you're right, its a bad example to set but hey, in some situations like this, you cant come out with answer where everyone can benefit from... man im not sure if u understood bad, my bad english... not good... also as the US elected president, Bush should do WHAT HE THINKS IS BEST FOR TEH NATION... if you didn't like he's decision, just dont vote for him next time... i dunnno, i think he's making the best out of a bad situation, but hey who knows, im just a stupid kid with no brain

yes, it is a bad example. Then why advocate it?

well, there is a simple way that everyone can benefit from it. Not detain 500-1000 people letting them wait in an increasingly long wait for them to be questioned and cleared. That'd benefit everyone. Do more than they're doing right now. And, bush isn't the one doing this...that's the INS. If i don't like his decision, i can vote for someone else next time? it's not that simple. Think about it, i'm only one person. second of all, i have to factor in the other candidates...i don't want gore in there and since he's not running next time i hope the liberal candidate next tiem will be better, so i wanted bush in there. Then you hvae to factor in inevitability, if someone is going to win...they are going to no matter what...and me voting otherwise isn't going to do anything but satisfy my moral standards and not change anything. There are more reasons than that. I don't feel liek thinking/typing more cause people don't read long messages.

Hey, don't cut down on yourself. If you are wrong you are wrong, if you are right you are right. And, still that's all subjective. Don't call yourself stupid, it's not a big deal if anybody is right or if anybody is wrong.

quote:

MY RESPONSE----------im glad im not running this country too because it WOULD BE (@*!&(@!&*$ed up...but back to your quote... i dunno, i think america did what was in her best interest... and that was to put the japanss in camps... personally i think japan would have done the same thing, OR ANY OTHER COUNTRY for that matter, if americans were living in japan... so i think america did what any other country would have done... i dont have a right to say it was right or wrong... BUT THATS WHY EVERYONE SHOULD LIVE IN THEIR OWN COUNTRY AND NOT IMMIGRATE... im a immigrant but i wish i didnt come here and just live in my country, none of this RACISMS and crap like that would happen, or am i wrong again???

haha, all right

i don't think reciprocity (other people doing the same thing) is any justification for the US doing it. I don't care if another coutnry did it or would have...we did it and i live here and i think we should be better than other nations just we should always strive to be the better person in any instance. Here's a real life situation:

someone punches you with the intent to start a fight. Do you punch them back or not in order to be the better person? Yes, you were probably taught to be the better person and not punch back. We all are. Why not america as a whole?

Just a side note, but why do you hate "being wrong" so much? No one cares if you are or aren't. Anyway, i think that is terrible. Immigration should be allowed, i dont' see why we have to balkanize the entire world all for the sake of mere racism being resolved. And, no need to harp over my use of the word "mere" attached to racism. I use that to show how miniscule it is comparatively with the lack of other benefits such as diversity and such that would not be here if we had a balkanized world. It's like global apartheid...ugh, it's ugly.

quote:
YOUR QUOTE--------. And, you don't think arabs have a right to protest? That is so offensive. Why don't i have a right to protest? Seriously, tell me, i think i am much more deserving than a lot of these utterly stupid americans that live here...and you are telling me i somehow don't have a right to?

MY RESPONSE------ my responsed was biased, i guess im wrong like usual :( but americans aren't utterly stupid... don't get me wrong, im not a american-lover or anything like that but if your statement is right, how come America is on top of the world? the thing that i dont get is... why don't someone butcher YASSER ARAFAT, sorry got off topic

umm, you missed the entirety of the sentence. Again, who cares if you are wrong anyway.

Look at what i said, i said "like a lot of these utterly stupid americans." A lot means not a whole. I don't think all americans are stupid, then i would htink i was stupid as well. America is on the top of the world because we have smart people within our very stupid society.

We don't butcher yasser arafat because we can't just go around killing world leaders. Think of hte reciprocal effects that could incur. There is more hate towards the US than to yasser arafat. People would definately kill bush if it wasn't for something called precedent, and whatever pact we signed.

quote:

MY RESPONSE------------god this is getting loooong... now i see your point, i was baised again... but like i said, YOU CANT MAKE EVERYONE HAPPY... or the world would be a better place for me too!

all right.

Again, you can make more people happy by not commiting outright injustices. the world could be a better place if we just didn't do that all for the sake of utilitarianism.

quote:

MY RESPONSE-------------glad you're not mad, i didn't mean to offend arabs, i just wrote that because i agree with what bush is trying to do to prevent another massacre... i like to believe in the goodwill of our leaders... i just be a follower that's all so no need to BASH ME

people don't always intend for what follows. That's usually never the point. I don't mind though.

But still, bush isn't behind all this. It's the INS, sure bush will back it because he won't say the INS is doing wrong from somehting he helped to get into ruling. But, it's not just bush. I like to believe in the goodwill of our leaders, and i do...but i think that goodwill isn't enough when it's blind.

And...how did i bash you? Seriously, i don't htink i did at all.

quote:

OMG SOMEONE BETTER READ ALL THAT SHIT I WROTE... took forever... well to answer crazy's question " WTF is wrong with you" i say this... nothing, wtf is wrong with thinking bush is making the best decision out of a bad situation??

hahaha now you know what it's like hehe. I'll respond to that question since i feel like it and support what victor said pretty much as well. There's nothing wrong with bush making the best out of a situation, but why expect that much to outweigh everything else? sure good intentions only go so far.

Anywah, thank you that was fun

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