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- Enlightenment (https://www.jusunlee.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?forumid=17)
-- human instinct (https://www.jusunlee.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=13913)

Posted by PsychoSnowman on 11-07-2003 05:10 PM:

if we advocate your view, we should stop searching for that which we perceive impossible to understand, or that we perceive important. What you are saying is that we should realize we cannot find the answer or it is not important and then refuse to question questioning, and becuase of that we should just reject all debate in this sense as a whole. Not a good idea, the implications leave us complacent and frozen in time, never progressing. What matters differs from person to person, you know that. To impose your idea of this being meaningful would be rather coercive, yeah? Debate does not become meaningless, everything has as much meaning as you infuse with it.

It is not debating for the sole purpose of debating, it is debating to gain knowledge.

__________________
Long messages do not equal aggravation of any sort,
rather they reflect nothing more than a response of insight
that should always be read in a matter-of-fact tone.

"Those womyn that seek equality with men, lack determination."

"I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible you may be wrong."
-Cromwell

Posted by TyGer STyLe on 11-08-2003 09:59 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by PsychoSnowman
if we advocate your view, we should stop searching for that which we perceive impossible to understand, or that we perceive important.


well... i never said that? nor was it implied...

quote:
What you are saying is that we should realize we cannot find the answer or it is not important and then refuse to question questioning, and becuase of that we should just reject all debate in this sense as a whole.


hmm... you sure are making a big assumption... what you CAN assume... is "what is the relevance of finding and figuring out the truth through debating this question?"

simply put it... if you did happen to read into my question is... when does debating turn into something that is seeking answers, to something that is simply done for the simple arguement?


quote:
What matters differs from person to person, you know that. To impose your idea of this being meaningful would be rather coercive, yeah? Debate does not become meaningless, everything has as much meaning as you infuse with it.


i can see how that is true... and it will always be true that what matters differs from person to person... but a debate can become meaningless... that is if the subject that is debated makes no relevance, or makes no progress in a forward motion toward the ultimate goal of more knowledge... and the progress of man's thinking... you see... you can have two people debate whats better... the hot dog or the hamburger... in the end its just an inane coversation about food, that leads to no forward progress... therefore... i ask you...

why does it matter? i have yet to recieve a satisfying answer to my question... shouldn't all debates start with this question?

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Posted by PsychoSnowman on 11-08-2003 06:58 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by TyGer STyLe
well... i never said that? nor was it implied...


It is called a ramification. It is implied, you did not say it and it does not matter that you did not say it. We need to be aware of the consequences of our statements even if we did not say it.

quote:

hmm... you sure are making a big assumption... what you CAN assume... is "what is the relevance of finding and figuring out the truth through debating this question?"


you just restated yourself, you did not answer anything. I can implicate, and maybe you should too. You can defend yourself better than victimizing yourself through the assumption card.


quote:

simply put it... if you did happen to read into my question is... when does debating turn into something that is seeking answers, to something that is simply done for the simple arguement?


not in this topic. But even you can realize that even the most fruitless debates increase education. Furthermore, why would it matter if it turned into simple argumentation? If that does not matter, there is no reason why we should not debate it. This is the debate forum, it is for debating despite if it is meaningful to you or not. You are not the only perspective in the universe, to others it is meaningful, to your hypocritical view of it not being worth it (hypocritical becuase it not being meaningful really has no point as well).



quote:

i can see how that is true... and it will always be true that what matters differs from person to person... but a debate can become meaningless... that is if the subject that is debated makes no relevance, or makes no progress in a forward motion toward the ultimate goal of more knowledge... and the progress of man's thinking... you see... you can have two people debate whats better... the hot dog or the hamburger... in the end its just an inane coversation about food, that leads to no forward progress... therefore... i ask you...

why does it matter? i have yet to recieve a satisfying answer to my question... shouldn't all debates start with this question?



Funny how you say you can see how that is true, and then proceed to advocate the absolute of reaching a concurrence of something being meaningless (e.g. debate).

I have yet to receive a satisfying answer from you. Either it's "oh isn't that a big assumption" or restating yourself, or it becomes inconsistent.

It does not matter if it matters. Why do you care? Who really cares? You make countless inane posts as you imply this topic being, and called the hotdog vs hamburger debate. Are you going to stop posting on jsl because you are not increasing your intellect so rapidly? You never seemed to care so much before, and it seems like such an overt hypocrisy of you to refuse to debate something in the debate forum that is not up to your standards when you post elsewhere in jsl about things that substantially llack more substance than this comparatively.

Why does it matter if it is meaningless in your opinion? Especially when others make think it is meaningful, really, why is it?

__________________
Long messages do not equal aggravation of any sort,
rather they reflect nothing more than a response of insight
that should always be read in a matter-of-fact tone.

"Those womyn that seek equality with men, lack determination."

"I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible you may be wrong."
-Cromwell

Posted by AussieHonkie on 11-10-2003 02:21 PM:

is instincts common sense ???

well einstein said that common sense is just a build up form of prejudices ....

Posted by Yooniece on 01-03-2004 04:46 PM:

Eh... instincts have been catagorically accepted by modern biologists to exist.

For example, (another baby example) a child is born. It takes a breath. This was not taught behavior as it has had no prior experience with breathing or any training from the mother. Instinctively, the baby knew that it had to breathe to assure it's survival.

Posted by Alchemist on 01-03-2004 11:10 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Yooniece
Eh... instincts have been catagorically accepted by modern biologists to exist.

For example, (another baby example) a child is born. It takes a breath. This was not taught behavior as it has had no prior experience with breathing or any training from the mother. Instinctively, the baby knew that it had to breathe to assure it's survival.


In that case does this mean that any process carried out by the autonomic nervous system is instinct? What about the beating of the heart, or the digestive system?

Posted by Yooniece on 01-04-2004 12:17 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Alchemist
In that case does this mean that any process carried out by the autonomic nervous system is instinct? What about the beating of the heart, or the digestive system?


Those are internally regulated by the subconcious. You can't tell your heart to beat. But you control breathing. There's a big difference.

__________________

Posted by Alchemist on 01-04-2004 02:55 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Yooniece
Those are internally regulated by the subconcious. You can't tell your heart to beat. But you control breathing. There's a big difference.
You can control your breathing consciously but it can also be controlled by the subconscious. The autonomic nervous system has the ability to control it.

I'm sure you're concentrating real hard on breathing when you're asleep.

Posted by Yooniece on 01-04-2004 03:07 AM:

Breathing conducted during sleep isn't the same thing as your first, controlled breath.

Prove that a baby doesn't breathe in by will to survive and you win this debate. .

__________________

Posted by Alchemist on 01-04-2004 11:20 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Yooniece
Breathing conducted during sleep isn't the same thing as your first, controlled breath.



That's like saying a fishing boat under the command of a fisherman isn't the same as the first fishing boat which I go on with a rifle and commandeer, assuming that you’re talking about a consciously controlled breath.

Posted by Yooniece on 01-04-2004 11:51 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Alchemist
That's like saying a fishing boat under the command of a fisherman isn't the same as the first fishing boat which I go on with a rifle and commandeer, assuming that you’re talking about a consciously controlled breath.


No, it's not the same thing, and FYI, your analogy didn't make sense, please try again.

You're trying to rip me on an argument based on psyche, once again you have to prove that the subconscious mind's functions are the same of that of the conscious. Breathing regulated through slumber is NOT the same as breathing while you're awake. Think of it as a machine... while you're awake, a person pumps the machine... while you're asleep it's on auto. And no, you're not ALWAYS on auto.

__________________

Posted by Alchemist on 01-05-2004 03:13 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Yooniece
No, it's not the same thing, and FYI, your analogy didn't make sense, please try again.

You're trying to rip me on an argument based on psyche, once again you have to prove that the subconscious mind's functions are the same of that of the conscious. Breathing regulated through slumber is NOT the same as breathing while you're awake. Think of it as a machine... while you're awake, a person pumps the machine... while you're asleep it's on auto. And no, you're not ALWAYS on auto.


Your diaphragm changes the pressure in your lungs whether you're asleep or awake. A boat's a boat, if someone wants it bad enough then it's not always controlled by the fisherman.

You're not always thinking about breathing when you're awake are you?

Edit: I think I may have missed the reason that requires me to prove that the conscious and subconscious function in the same way.

Posted by aaqthree on 01-07-2004 02:47 AM:

I'm typing this right now, and have absolutely no thoughts devoted to the conscious control of my breath.

We CAN control our breathing, we don't HAVE to while we are awake. It is, for the most part, subconscious. That's why to control your breathing to different degrees needs to be learned (like Lamaze or Yoga). Very few times are you actually, CONSCIOUSLY controlling your breath.

Honestly, do you physically make yourself breathe in and out every single breath you take during the day (day = while you're awake)? Obviously we CAN make ourselves inhale and exhale, that's how people "take deep breaths" to calm their nerves. But then...why do we breathe faster when we do aerobic exercise? Our body controls that, NOT our minds.

As for the original question...I strongly believe in instinct. I'm sure we've all had personal experience with instinct. Someone throws a punch at you, you duck (I'm not talking about when you're in a fight, I'm talking about sometime when you have no time to think about it, you just react).

In addition, I've had some instincts in me tell me things, helping me with decisions all the time. It's just nature...I'm naturally more inclined to some things for reasons I cannot explain until I actually explore that choice.
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